…amazing how callous people can be when things happen in someone elses backyard. given the effect 9/11 had on you, Jeff, it puzzles me how you could even ask the question at this time; and then keep asking it when job #1 would seem to be getting the people to safety.
I have to agree with daudder. Getting the water out of New Orleans, rescuing those who need immediate attention, feeding and sheltering those currently left homeless, and cracking down on the gangs roaming the city should take priority over everything and anything else, including debating the future of this city, and ESPECIALLY including trying to score political points.
Tacky and insensitive? Yes
Bad Timing? Yes
Inevitable question? Yes
Will it come to anything? No
The more interesting question — or power play to watch — will be related to efforts to invoke eminent domain and re-layout the city. People will be lining up to line their pockets and build their power base.
But for now and the near future the focus should be exclusively on helping the people who are victims of this disaster.
Of course Hastert said that. Louisisana has a dem governette, and NO has a dem mayor. Clearly DH isn’t very interested in supporting them. But most important for him is to change the topic and circumvent any discussion about the fact that the repubs could have prevented much of this desaster.
I agree with most everyone here. This is not the time to debate these issues. Like I said on another thread, they haven’t even finished the rescue effort nor started collecting the dead bodies and idiot politicians and pundits are debating about rebuilding the city. Stop with the commentary about issues that can wait and start helping with the relief effort.
I know this point was made already, but really, ask yourself how you would have felt if someone came up to you while they were still rescuing people from the World Trade Center: So do you think we should rebuild the towers? There is too much emotion right now to give that answer the careful consideration it deserves.
As I sit in front of my TV watching various new repoorts on the events in MI and LA I sewe all these in interviews with people such as the head of FEMA, etc.
If it were me, i’d tell the press that I have better things to do then answer repetative questions that I really don’t know the answer to. The amount of interview these officials are doing is a little rediculous. Instead of spending the time going on all the networks they could be directing their efforts towards the relief effort.
Since the Homeland Security department is “in charge” there should be perhaps 1 or 2 briefings a day to give updates on what the Governement is doing. No questions. Get the information out and get back to work.
It’s totally reasonable to be talking about this right now. It’s going to take a lot of money to help people recover, and knowing what the final objective is will make a big difference in how the money is spent. N.O. residents would start making very different plans if they knew that federal dollars would not be spent to re-create the city.
For my part, I think it should not be rebuilt. It’s crazy to throw tax dollars to these hazardous sites (outer banks of the Carolinas is another example). I’d rather spend the same money to help set people and businesses up in a new city farther from the coast.
Well the priority is to get the people out, and find and bury the dead. Who knows how many more hurricanes will strike N.O. this year and next? Florida got 4 last year. First reconstruction should be the infrastructure. Port, Oil, Electric, Interstates, etc. That will take a year at least. Some businesses will set up and some basic services will be offered. The city will come along as people want it to. The more people that move back the larger it will get. I suspect many will never return, they’ll take their insurance money and try and relocate. There should be no rush to rebuild the city. It would be criminal to rebuild any part below sea level again.
This is, of course, the wrong time to be talking about this. Everyone’s attention should be on saving lives and securing safety. However, I though John Breaux (D-LA) had a proper answer, “That’s like saying we should shut down Los Angeles because it’s built in an earthquake zone. Or like saying that after the Great Chicago fire of 1871, the U.S. government should have just abandoned the city.” Would anyone have dared utter abandoning the WTC site? I don’t think so.
Maybe when N.O. rebuilt, we should make sure that we have a president who doesn’t divert money required to repair the levee system and maintain the Army Corps of Engineers to undertake ideologically-driven wars of choice.
But we go to war with the President we have, right Jeff?
What would you rather have paid for now: an effective levee system in N.O. or the invasion of Iraq?
Oh, stop weeping you emotional slobs. It’s a good question. Should we rebuild (and pay for) something that’s below sea level and has been subjected to flloding and devistating hurricanes a number of times? When Chicago burned is spawned buildings with fireproof materials. We could do that. When San Francisco fell it created new earthquake-resistant building codes. We could do that. Are we going going to raise New Orleans above sea level or are we going to create (and can we afford to create) a monsterous cat-4 hurricane-proof (the levees were built to withstand cat 3) flood control system that will keep New Orleans dry? Can we do that? Forget how you “feel” about it. (People are getting help regardless of your feelings) It’s a good question. Someone has to ask it.
First a 110% effort to rescue all of the victims. Then provide whatever it takes to relocate them to safer areas. Then cleanup the mess as best possible. Then give the area back to Gaea.
“How can we have invaded Iraq without a plan for the aftermath?! It’s criminally responsible not to have planned for what we should do after the fighting!”
“How dare you say we should have concentrated on anything but keeping our soldiers from being killed in the initial operations?!”
Stupid line of argument, guys.
New Orleans isn’t over. Regardless of federal intervention, private insurers will pay off a lot of damages, some of which will go to people who will rebuild there because they want to live there. The city will change, almost without a doubt, but it’s not like we’re going to entomb the remains or anything.
Now, if you’re asking “should we subsidize insurance premiums for people to live in high-risk areas”, the answer is probably not. If you make it cheaper for people to live in a high-risk area without penalty, you’re changing their risk-taking calculus in a way that will encourage them to live in more risky areas.
The third question is, should you resettle New Orleans residents who have lost everything? Tougher – it’s not nice to say, “Well, if you don’t want to move away, you’ll just have to be destitute on your own,” but at the same time, NO isn’t going to recover for many many months yet.
I cant help but think that this ‘its their own damn fault for living their’ meme coming from the right, wouldnt be there if we were talking about a city that wasnt 70% Democrat-voting African Americans.
Then again the message of “NO is not worth rebuilding” may be a important defense when they have to defend why the cut funding to the Army Corps of Engineers efforts to rebuild the levees to divert the funds to Iraq.
However, as a practical matter, I disagree with Hastert and any number of commenters for this simple reason: Look at the map.
Where is New Orleans? New Orleans is at the mouth of the mississippi. Been there since long before the United States was the United States. Why did anyone build a city at the mouth of the mississippi on the Gulf of Mexico? Follow the Mississippi through the middle of the United States.
What is the Mississippi used for? Shipping of goods and products. It is one of the largest, natural transportation routes in this country if not the world. The largest Port in the United States. It is not only economically strategic, but also strategic in case of war directed at our shores or in case some other disaster (like hurricanes, tsunamis, etc) destroys another port.
We will rebuild NO because it has a purpose that is beyond the levees and the people that live there. it is vital to the security (economically and physically) of the US. Discussions otherwise are simply foolish.
I do believe that another intelligent poster commented on what will be the reality: lessons learned will mean new engineering and a new city.
Speaking as a former civil engineer–don’t be so optimistic about “new engineering.” Of course, we can come up with solutions. The questions are how much are you willing to spend, and how much protection do you want? The odds that we’ll have another Katrina in 2006 (and every year thereafter) is some number– 1% or 0.1%, something in that ballpark. Elected representatives, state and federal, will have to decide how much they’re willing to pay and what level of protection they want. I can assure you, to rebuild N.O. such that another Katrina will cause minimal damage and zero loss of life will be unaffordable.
Good comments above about subsidizing and incentives.
I went to college in NOLA 30 years ago and enjoyed both the city and other parts of the state. I am not anti democrat/Negro/poorpeople. But the fact is that there shouldn’t be a city by the coast that is below sea level, any more than there should be fancy expensive vacations homes on beaches that get hit by hurricanes often. Neither situation is prudent.
New Orleans has been where it is a long time and people have been worried about “the big one” a long time. This didn’t just come up and it’s not just the fault of the current crop of politicians and officials (local & federal). Inertia and denial are the primary players here just like it is along the New Madrid fault, parts of California, and numerous beachfront communities.
With the city so thoroughly destroyed, rebuilt housing stock should not be allowed below sea, river, or lake level. I own a rental property that is the lowest point for several blocks around and its basement (with its washer/dryer, HVAC, water heaters) floods or threatens to flood several times each year. After trying to work with multiple sump pumps (including battery-powered backups) and every other “solution,” it’s become clear that only removing those valuable & necessary components from the basement is the only reasonable choice.
Same goes for only rebuilding New Orleans on land that has been raised above sea/river/lake level or not rebuilding at all. Insisting on rebuilding in a dangerous area is emotionally driven and is not rational. Recognizing that has nothing to do with politics, racism, socio-cultural conditions, or anything else. It’s only being reasonable.
[...] (VÃa BuzzMachine) Esta anotación fue escrita el Viernes 02 de Septiembre, 2005 a las 3:13 am por Eduardo Arcos y está clasificada dentro de: PolitÃca, Sociedad. [...]
the settlers in gaza will be paid $200,000 to $300,000 for relocating much of the money coming from the US…..the families of 9/11 vicims were paid on average $2,000,000 for their loss…how much do you think the government should pay those who lived in NO to relocate.
Here’s what a genuine NewOrleans guy has to say to Hastert:
‘I did want to take the time to tell Dennis Hastert that he can go to hell. New Orleans WILL rebuild. I don’t care if it is a little toxic… that’s what rain is for. It’s not just a matter of the pride of a city. It’s a matter of NATIONAL pride — in a far more unified way than Iraq ever could be. New Orleans will not be done “on the cheap” if I or my 250,000,000 friends have anything to say about it.’
Imho supporting all rebuild efforts is what the repubs are owing the city and people of New Orleans after the Bush administration s***ed up the flood prevention measures.
building on a floodplain is folly, and that’s exactly what New Orleans did. No one wants a repeat of today’s situation, so it’s entirely appropriate to discuss what it takes to rebuild the city or whether it’s worth it. This doesn’t preclude helping the residents still stranded — give money, write your congressman, do you what you can to help. But we shouldn’t close our eyes to the factors that contributed to this disaster.
‘building on a floodplain is folly, and that’s exactly what New Orleans did. ‘
You tell that the dutch people. Most of their country is below sealevel since centuries. Last real desaster was in ‘53, since then they have modernized their flood prevention. The Bush administration slashed all fundes to update the levees, otherwise a desaster of this scale could have been prevented.
The technolocy exists and this solution is actually very inexpensive. Water weighs 64 lbs per sq. ft. so a 18 inch thick styrofoam layer under a house of 1000 sq. ft would lift 100,000 lbs. plenty for a one story home. Many two story floating homes have been built in the Netherlands.
How much would this cost? Very little, Water, Gas and Electrical lines simply have a 20 foot extra coil under the home for expansion, Sewer lines use a wax ring, just like a toilet, to connect with the underground wast lines. At the corner of the home is a post with a ring around it attached to the house, this allows for the home to float upwards with no lateral movement, like a dock.
The home is now permenantly out of the floodplain. The home is only 18 inches above the ground, very similar to a foundation, so access is only two steps, or a ramp for handicap access. I would be surprised if this cost more than $5-7,000 per home. Problem permenantly solved.
For everybody asshat on the right saying “its their own damn fault for living in New Orleans” I can point to three asshats on the left saying “its their own damn fault for voting for Bush.” Moreover I believe it is wholly inappropriate and extremely tasteless to be trying to score political points so soon after this disaster. Before you pop off so rightously, dig into your pocket and give money to relief agencies and, if possible, donate time to coordinating relief efforts. Then, when the job is done, bitch all you want. But I’m really not interested in hearing ANYBODY’s Monday morning quarterbacking right now.
After spending 8 hours on the roof of my home in Arabi with my son and cat in the teeth of the storm, lying on the sloping tiles and holding a large piece of wooden decking that we picked up floating by to ward off flying debris from the 120+ mph winds, I’ll leave it up to you geniuses to blame the authorities for the damage and chaos caused by Katrina. I’ve been flooded out twice now, once by Betsy in ‘64 and now by Katrina. This was orders of magnitude worse than ‘64. No amount of your idiotic “preparation” would have done a damned thing to make this much better. If you can stop the water from getting there in the first place that’s one thing, but once the ocean is out on the rampage like it was here there is nothing that can be done to stop it. Washington is to blame? The local Coast Guard did it. Give me a fucking break. Have you ever experienced the power of one of these storms or the wall of water that comes with a flash flood? Once the levees failed nothing can stop it, and civilization ends every place it goes.
100% of my Parish of St. Bernard is under 8-24 feet of water. My own home, and everything I own is gone. I’m not blaming George Bush, Ted Kennedy, or Ray Nagin for a natural disaster. Just what do you think anybody could have done. It was obvious to me ever since 7am that morning when we opened the door to the 4 ft of water outside that our survival was 100% up to us. There was nothing that anyone could do for us. My home is two blocks from the State HQ of the LA National Guard and they went under 20 ft of water too. We were rescued from our roof at 3 pm by a fisherman in a 14 ft boat who started picking people up immediately after the wind died down. But that just meant that we were out of immediate danger. There was no water, no power, no food, nothing.
You can’t bring in helicopters with power and cable lines flapping everywhere. Big boats can’t get through the narrow channels and dodge the tops of the cars and trucks under the water. We survived because our parish has a lot of folks with private boats, and they picked up the people in the parish and brought them to second stories and collection centers. We had no riots. Most of our folks spent days at the jail, the only place in the parish with emergency generators working and free of water. The police broke into pharmacies to get drugs and food stores to get food. Local pharmacist and nurses acted as doctors. It was miserable, lousy, and frightening. No sewerage, no cleanliness; diptheria city. But we got out eventually. Put these same conditions in a crowded city center where you concentrated the misery by gathering people together centrally and you get what you see on TV. There are no answers to this problem that are easy. The pictures on TV are brutal. Try it in person. But scoring cheap political points by saying that ANY amount of preparation would have prevented this is asinine. There are just too many people and too much water and destruction for troops, or helicopters, or anything humanly possible to change it. When this type of destruction occurs the level of civilization is reduced to the level of Somalia. It does not matter that the location is in the US, or anywhere else.
Almost all of us old timers realize that this was a 100 year storm and the government can’t call out the National Guard to a three state area, stockpile food and water, and mobilize for a national emergency every time a hurricane threatens. It is a risk we take, just as California risks earthquakes.
The city has been vulnerable to this ever since expansion of the old city into suburbs after WWII resulted in more and more low areas being heavily populated and requiring more and more levee protection. After riding out innumerable storms, most of which turned out to be duds, I never thought I would see something hit with this type of force.
Was the relief effort screwed up. Yes. Was the response by some inadequate, sometimes even cowardly. Sure. Did I ever expect more. No. Let them have committees, and investigations, and no end of improved procedures. It would be better if they used all the paper that they will produce to raise the levees. I’m watching a girl named Nancy Grace on TV, and I literally would like to reach inside the TV screen and strangle the stupid bitch. Sure folks said they would get people out. They thought they could too. I saw our own St. Bernard police, who stayed and shared everything with us, say they would get people out and saw the frustration when they realized how much worse it was than they thought it would be and that they just couldn’t do what they promised. Even operations that seem simple, like loading 600 people onto two car ferries to be moved downriver where buses could get them becomes complicated when the moorings have been destroyed and you have to rig catwalks for people to get from the dock to the boat. Try it with about 150-200 partially disabled and elderly people. Nothing is as easy as it looks from your armchair.
The simple solution is that the water must be kept out in the first place. The settled area in NOLA must be protected by not a 12-14 foot levee system but by a fail proof 28-30 foot levee system. Do that and maybe you solve the problem. Until the next storm hits just right.
It’s nature’s fault folks. We can’t control it. And living in America can’t always guarantee civilization. That’s something that people carry inside them. Face up to it.
I have just been reading the responses on this site and got to Ronnie’s. I just have to say YESSSSSSSSSSS. Finally someone with some intelect. You make alot of sense and I hope with all my heart things go well for you.
I don’t think the rebuilding question is insensitive because although there are thousands still trapped in New Orleans there are many more thousand who have been displaced who are asking that very question. Right now, they are sitting in Baton Rouge or Houston trying to decide what to do next. Many have already decided not to return. So addressing this debate in the media is important for these people. Will they rebuild NO? Should they? When should they? What are the priorities? They need answers to these questions to make decision about their own futures.
Ultimately, WE cannot answer these questions. New Orleans will do it itself.
In other words you might want to rebuild N.O. as before but it won’t be possible if people don’t want to return. This is what might happen.
They will rebuild the port, the french quarter and part of the CBD. But they won’t be able to rebuild the rest of the city because not enough people will return. It will be months before anyone can return, so many won’t. Most of the houses will have to be destroyed because they will have been sitting for weeks and weeks in contaminated water. (this is not like a normal flood where the water receeds in a couple of days). When people do start moving back there won’t be enough infrastructure and the crime rate will likely be high in poorer areas. Plus people will be wary of more hurricanes, climate change, etc.
They simply won’t be able to attact enough people there. I envisage New Orleans becoming a smaller town based on the port and the tourist centre and the music. More the size of Savannah or Annapolis or Williamsburg.
Maybe that won’t be a bad thing.
I’m glad i visited N.O. in 1996. It was fantastic.
It was a great town. I was just there 6 months ago. I’m so fortunate to have seen and experienced it’s uniqueness, before it was all destroyed. Proves we are all but fleas on the back of this dog called Mother Earth.
The reason this topic is under discussion is that our president and others in public service have made statements on the media that NO will be rebuilt. Period.
Yes, the first priority is to rescue and protect, but we at our keyboards can do little physically to help unless we have a shelter in our area at which to volunteer or donate articles. So we look at and debate the options and consequences.
I agree with Ronnie. But I don’t want to see my tax dollars spent to enable this to happen again and again, with more loss of life and property, and more tax dollars spent to rescue, protect, and rebuild. This includes all areas of our country that are prone to natural disasters where people insist on living. If the city is restored, let it be with private funds and not at the expense of the entire population. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN!
I think its a very sad day for America for those questioning whether New Orleans should be rebuilt. For every natural disaster that has occured in this country we have rebuilt. Cities destroyed in California due to earthquakes were rebuilt. From Florida up the coast in both directions, beachfront properties and towns destroyed by storms and hurricanes were always rebuilt. The Great Chicago fire that destroyed the city, wildfires out west that demolish small towns and multi-million dollar homes have been rebuilt. The world trade center will be replaced with a new skyscraper. Towns and sities ravaged from the the Civil War to our Revolution to Pearl Harbor. The day America decides to gives up hope to rebuild, regrow and flourish in its own backyard, will be also be a sad day for the world. America has never given hope no matter what the circumstances, for if we have, we would have a lot of towns and cities across this great land sitting desolate in ruins, America has stood strong and rebuilt for every attack on this free land, whether it was nature of man. Keep America strong, for centuries, we have rebuilt this nation over and over, and made it stronger and stronger. How can we rebuild other parts or the world if we cant even save our own people in our own backyard. Please do not coward to fear. Stay strong America. From Japan’s destruction to Germany’s destruction to the ups/downs in exploring new frontiers of space. Americans have all shared in rebuilding of our country and the world with there hard earned working money and taxes, while all the doomsdayers said to give it up, we never have, and now sure is the time not too!!! New Orleans is a Great American City. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN !!
We have all seen those interviews on the ground in Florida or North Carolina or (now) Louisiana where people defiantly say that they will rebuild. Haven’t you ever thought to yourself, why the hell would you do that? Roll the dice and see if your house and all of your possessions can be smashed again? Maybe even lose your life?
Building your home (or a city) on sand, on a shoreline, on an island, below sea level, near a faultline, near a volcano, or on a steep slope is just not an intelligent idea. Sure, you may go an entire lifetime without incident, but if you don’t, and then you decide to stay in the same place, then don’t be surprised if a little natural selection takes place.
Not only that, but saying what I just said is absolutely fine. Oh, the PC crowd probably won’t like it, as if stating something that obvious is in some way offensive. Not only is it okay to question the wisdom of building in such a place, it is also okay to do so while the honorable task of saving and assisting those people takes place. Maybe, just maybe, someone down there will hear it, and decide to move someplace safer instead of getting themselves killed the next time around.
Rebuilding for the sake of rebuilding alone is not smart. Saying we should not talk about it now is diversionary – even when everyone is out of there, people will still say we shouldn’t talk about it, because it is too judgemental for their taste.
So, go ahead and rebuild! You have that freedom, just like I have the freedom to say what I think about it. Just don’t expect too much sympathy when it all happens again and again.
Your right about people just re-building with no plan on how to deal with the next class five storm that will hit them.
I was checking the FEMA site and saw that they now endorse building safe rooms in your house in tornado areas. They should make people add these to any house they rebuild down there. A nice large one! The one thing that stood up to the 30 foot storm surge and winds where bank vaults! Safe rooms are basically the same thing without the fancy vault door.
Hell, I bet they could put a steel waterproof door on them to keep storm surge out. Then you could put valuables in them that would get ruined otherwise if they got wet. Think of it, you drive back after a class four/five and have nothing standing, but your foot-and-a-half thick safe room full of your stuff. Things like – rare furniture, photos, documents, computers, artwork, tools, medicine, generators, and, food, and water! That’s piece of mind knowing something WILL be standing when you come home. How much is concrete and steel rebar compared to your possessions?
However, I’m betting most people won’t build them since they are new. I wonder if you can get a break on insurance if you put one in?
Check the FEMA site out - http://www.fema.gov/mit/saferoom/
This is the big easy’s big opportunity to do it right.
It’s a lot of valuable property to lose, but I’d build up the land above
sea level now. I can just see the mayor’s face on that one.
If that pill is just too bitter, here’s my plan B.
All the low level buildings are going to have to be scraped. Anything not touched by water is hopefully high enough to remain. Large structures below that level could become basements, or below new street level.
Chicago has a wonderful labyrinth of underground shopping and walkways.
….what about an underground rail system?
Build it before you bury it. There might now be all kinds of advantages
that did not exist before. Make lemonade. Advertise you’re making lemonade, so the people will want to come back once it’s made.
The lake is what is too high, not the river. Couldn’t you take the dirt/earth/silt
from the bottom of the lake and use it to fill in and raise up the low lying areas of the city? Thereby also lowering the level of the water on the other side? Don’t ask me the machinery it would entail, it just sounds like a good
idea. I know it will take a lot of dirt. But, while they are taking out the dirt, they could be laying water channels to divert water out of the lake into aqueducts that don’t go into the city.
If the lake is a mile deep already, forget it- I just have never read anywhere how deep it is. I assume because of existing property, this could never have been considered before, now it can. Property lines would simply move up in height.
Here is a really great article written in 2000 about all the plans on the table that the local and state governments threw out due to cost. It’s a short read, called the Lost City of New Orleans. The last plan -Coast 2050 is diverting water and rebuilding the wetlands. It’s very sensible plan, which is probably why it won’t get done.
You can keep building the levee 30- 40′ high,
but with the city sinking, eventually you’ll have everything that was just lost, only with the pressure of 30′ of water all around you. Who’s going to insure that, much less want to live there?
Let’s see. New Orleans is about 100 square miles that needs to be raised about an average of 18 feet. The cost of commercial fill is about $2 a cubic yard delivered in bulk. That is about 5 billion dollars (3 Billion to Halliburton just to grease the sled). New 10 foot concrete pillings will be about $50,000 per house (250,000 houses) or about 13 billion to get everyone 20 foot above sea level and provide incredible amount of new off street parking below the houses and businesses. The city can bond 5 billion to create all new underground utilities including communications. Tax revenue from a new double wide Bourbon Street and enhanced tourist attraction will easily pay the 250 million bond debt interest. The fed will have to pick up the I-10 hurricane improvements at 2 billion. Private insurance can pick up the 26 billion to rebuild every house to cat 5 standard at an average $100,000 per house. The state, city, and fed can share the 20 billion cost to rebuild the roads and create a beautiful system of canals that make every home and project house a waterfront or waterview property, provide boat access for everyone to Lake Pontchartrain and the gulf, and permanently eliminate the threat of flooding from rain or hurricane. Boat sales will go through the roof. Reconstrtuction jobs will be plentiful. Income will go up. Poverty will go down. Business will flock in. New Orleans will be rocking like never before. There will even be a downtown gondolier business. The average homeowner can sell out for 3/4 million dollars and move elsewhere or enjoy living in the most modern and beautiful city in the world. Homeowners will have to chip in if they they want to upgrade but there will be plenty of good jobs to allow that. Throw in 14 billion fed money to fix the delta. The total cost to local, state, and fed to create the finest seaside city in the world is less than 100 billion. Private donations can pay to raise historical structures and the French Quarter. In ten years we could redo 9 other seaside cities which all suffer from subsidence. The economic impact of all that infrastructure investment might restore Wall Street and balance the budget. Or we can drop those same trillion bucks in Iraq for more “security.” Charity begins at home. We just need imaginative local, state, and federal leadership, not leadership that can’t imagine anything. Now what is really going to happen is that the fed is going to blow 100 billion to patch up the city and leave it in the same mess it is in now!
Sound just like what happened after Hurricane Andrew in 1992-Democrats blame, blame, blame!
When the American people get the real story and scope of what really happend on the Gulf Coast (90,000 square miles affected). A Governor who is incompetant and a Mayor who did not take it serious. A President who reacted 3 days before the storm hit. Hell the Commander who is running the NO airport was in Cairo Egypt on Friday night and on the ground Wednesday night!!
Three of the major models agreed 4 days out on the course and intensity-but some people are just not smart enough.
Our Bush here in Florida get’s it, and it is no matter where you think the storm is going you get the people mobilized and prepared.
I really want to know if all you Lib’s really want 1878’s Posse Commitatus suspended-I can hear you all cry “my rights are being violated by the US armed forces”
Do not be affraid that you do not understand half of this-thats ok you are LIB’S!!
take the politics out of it. is it the time to inquire as to rebuilding ? it MUST be addressed asap. this is one of the most important ports in the world. the question should not be where or when to rebuild but how to rebuild and how do we make it safe. since the dawn of man we have placed ourselves in harms way and we will continue to do so due to commerce and trade. we know that in reality there is NO safe place on the mississippi.we saw this years ago in the massive floods. new orleans will not be moved in any direction but up. i’ve read opinion after opinion concerning flood remedies such as floating houses or filling in the bowl of this city with dirt. but we are not looking at just houses. we are looking at huge buildings that house some of the largest corporations in the world. the way i see it, the city must be pumped dry, bulldozed and burned. then you can start the task of errecting the pylons that will be needed to carry the weight of a honeycomb foundation that you can build your city upon at a height of 25 – 30 feet above sea level. expensive ? Yes ! but either way it will cost hundreds of billions of dollars to relocate the city or fill in the bowl which will still feel the errosion of the river and lake. the city must be elevated to a safe height. do it right…do it once…no more worries.
I agree that we do need to know the final objective to begin the enormous project of rebuilding, but let’s not get crazy. The French Quarter and the CBD had minimal damage, leave it alone. Higher elevation neighborhoods should be left as legacy neighborhoods, permitted to remain with levees placed to give them moderate protection. The lower sections of the city should be purchased and created into a huge park, zoo, and other recreation facilities over which the new transit system would run bringing people into the old city from new planned communities on higher ground outside the old boundries. Top it off by building to host the olympics in 2012. Why not start exploring the ideas of a low fuel, mass transport. green city here, make the developments dense, mixed income, with all the neccessary neighborhood amenities within walking distance, centered around transit hubs. We have an opportunity to build the model sustainable city, let’s do it.
Oh yeah, a park, I love sitting around a stagnant pond getting mosquito bites. I say we salvage anything of value from the swamp that now is New Orleans, and move on. If we are going to use tax money to build these people a new town, I suggest doing it somewhere else. An Olympic City?.. get serious, move the damn city somewhere else so it wont get hit again. Jesus people, this is common sense. If a baby gets burned from a candle it remembers not to touch candles again. How hard it is to understand. Lets (tax payers) cut out losses and move on.
SOLUTIONS
A wise person once said “For every problem there is a solution.”
Since we are heading in this direction, with the deterioration of fossil fuel. We need to insert ideas of energy saving solutions, for the entire area of destruction, which we need to rebuild.
When the rest of the country begins to enter the crisis mode, and there will be, we will have the perfect model of existence to build our own commuities on.
Now with that said, let all wise persons proceed.
New Orleans is one of the most important black cities in the South and should be restored to its former self. Its 70% black population should not be all living within feet of the levees. It seems that the city was deliberately setup that way, so whenever the levees did fail, the black population would suffer heavy losses and their property could be taken by the government and used for other purposes. Nobody cared about getting relief down there sooner because who cares about poor black people, right? We are only 14% of the population of the U.S., with most of it living down South. New Orleans will not be the same without its huge black population; African-Americans give the region diversity and a culture like no other in the World. Every black person all over the world should feel some sorrow for what happened down there. Last but not least, DO NOT CONFUSE LOOTERS WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO SURVIVE BECAUSE OF LACK OF BASIC NECESSITIES THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED. I WOULD BE TAKING FROM THESE STORES TOO, IF IT MEANT MY SURVIVAL. DON’T BE SO QUICK TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ON PEOPLE IF YOU DON’T KNOW THE SEVERITY OF THEIR SITUATION. DON’T ASSUME THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE THE ONLY ONES DOING IT TOO; REMEMBER NEW ORLEANS IS 70% BLACK, BUT ALSO 30% NON-BLACK!!!
The reality of this great loss is that most of the population does not have the economic ability to wait 9 months to move back home. Any rebuilding will take 12 to 18 months to complete at best. The majority of the pre-disaster population is not going home.
Businesses are not going to wait 12 to 14 months to go home either. I believe that the city will be rebuilt but it will be 30% of its original size.
I’m sitting in Lafayette, Louisiana, a city about 120 miles northwest of New Orleans. As I read the arguments against spending ‘my tax money’ to rebuild the Crescent City I am reminded of the innumerable ways in which my own tax money has been spent over the years. We have rebuilt thousands of homes throughout the midwest when tornados sweep through, Homestead, Florida was rebuilt after Andrew, we’re spending billions in New York City to rebuild after the 9/11 attacks, Dennis Hastert’s Congressional website brags about the Federal disaster relief going to all but one county in Illinois due to a drought (should we force the farmers of Illinois to relocate to an area less prone to dry weather?), the nuclear power industry is exempted by Congress from having to cover themselves adequately by privately obtained insurance, and the list goes on and on. Every place in this nation has its own problems with natural disasters. It seems that the only ones some folks wish to subsidize are their own. I have to say that it is impossible to know how severe future storms will be. Will we see catagory six or seven added to the Saffir-Simpson scale? Who can tell? But I do know that we could have done much better by New Orleans as we could have done for many problems this country has faced over the years. However it is in the nature of politics in this country that the squeeky wheel gets the grease and the wheel about to fall off gets ignored until it does. I hate to sound pessimistic but this will probably be another situation in which we blame each other, politicians congratulate themselves for investigating and finding fault everywhere but with them and we continue our penny wise and pound foolish ways.
As a refugee from New Orleans currently sheltering in Baton Rouge, I’ve got a few thoughts. Most importantly, New Orleans CAN be made safe IF Federal resources are applied. Levees can be raised to withstand Cat 5 storms (Nola’s levees were built to hold up against Cat 3’s – Katrina was a Cat 4). The city can be further partitioned into sections with internal levees, which would act like watertight compartments on ships, isolating flooded sectors but leaving remaining areas dry. The final key to safety involves investing in the eroding wetlands surrounding the city and buffering it from the open waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Remember that, for New Orleans, the danger is not so much wind as it is water. Much like the Thames River barrier in England, the seaward entrance to Lake Pontchartrain (the Rigolets & Chef Menteur passes) can be barricaded to stop a storm surge. Indeed, such a project was proposed in the aftermath of Hurricane Betsy (1965), but was quashed for some reason. Nixon budget cuts perhaps? The cost will be great, but, as Kat mentions above, it could well be peanuts compared with the cost of completely reprogramming our nation’s infrastructure as a consequence of abandoning New Orleans’ port, sited near the mouth of the river system which drains (and provides commercial access to) one-third of our nation’s lower-48 land area. Remember, too that while New Orleans itself has (or had) just under 500,000 inhabitants, the metro area – no higher in elevation and no less vulnerable to levee collapses – comprises over 1.3 million residents. That’s a lot of people to move wholesale. As others have noted, global warming, rising sea levels and the capricious course of the Mississippi River are other perils, but a careful combination of engineering and wetland regeneration can probably effectively combat this. Indeed, New Orleans could serve as a technological testing ground, as cities like New York, Singapore and London are not so far above sea level in many places that they wouldn’t be affected in short order by the same sea level trends.
I too am alternately saddened and enraged by the behavior of what is, TO BE SURE, a small minority of the city’s poor. And I do think that a careful distinction needs to be made between those taking necessities and those stealing plasma-screen TVs or carjacking their neighbors. Nonetheless, these scenes will surely pose an enormous stumbling block to attracting new investment. However, maybe New Orleans will emerge from Katrina’s trials with far less poverty, the breeding ground for the depravity that the nation witnessed. One effect of this storm could be a demographic reshaping of the city. Tens of thousands of poor New Orleanians have been evacuated to the more vigorous economic climate of Houston, Dallas, etc. Let them better themselves; their chances will certainly be better there. For arguably more than 100 years, New Orleans has been caught in a vicious bind, the chicken-and-egg paradox at its most vivid: the city fails to attract sufficient investment because of its crushing poverty and consequent social ills, but poverty cannot be ameliorated without sufficient investment. Perhaps that cycle will now be broken. On a more micro level, the city itself has been recently mired in a cycle of vigilante killings and retribution killings; that cycle has obviously been disrupted, and the opportunity exists to quash it for good.
Visionary urban design could induce, if not private insurers, than perhaps federal and state agencies to write flood insurance for a rebuilt New Orleans. The city’s geography is simple, but musn’t be over-simplified. Areas along the river, and extending back from its banks for 1/2-1 mile are ABOVE sea level. Also above sea level are the parks and neighborhoods reclaimed in the 1920s from Lake Pontchartrain at the northernmost boundary of the city. BECAUSE of this geography, unsurprisingly, practically all of the city’s historic built environment lies within the former zone (i.e., near the river). Look at the maps of the areas flooded for confirmation. Not only the French Quarter was spared. This historic swath of the city contains perhaps 100,000 residents and possesses mile after mile of stunning architecture and beautiful boulevards, still there – and dry – according to the satellite photos I’ve examined. Much of the rest of the city could be rebuilt as a marvel of sensitive eco-design: houses on tall piers/neighborhoods of marshy preserves teeming with life and interlaced with canals, internal levees (mentioned earlier) topped with bike paths, etc.
I’ll leave the cultural rhapsodizing to others; many can do it beautifully, and I agree with their sentiments wholeheartedly. Remember, though, that in a nation where everywhere seems to be looking increasingly like everywhere else, there is one soulful, special place. It is not destroyed, only parts of it are. And the best bits remain. And I am determined to return.
asdfasd, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I don’t see you writing anything that is worth reading. I have family down there that is affected by this disaster and, yes, they are African-American. So that’s where I’m coming from. Don’t be so quick to judge a book by its cover!
The St. Charles Av. streetcar line is the oldest continuously operating rail line in the country. It began in the 1830’s with tiny steam locomotives. The line was converted to electricity as I recall in the late 1800’s. The cars which have been operating were built by the Obscure Perley Thomas company of Northy Carolina. Many of these cars have been operating from the mid 1920’s forward. Much of the line is in neutral ground except for the downtown area. I hope this has been saved.
I should imagine that the Riverside line probably has not been saved. The brand new restoration of the Canal St. line (began last year after an absence of 40 years) surely was underwater and the home built stareetcars were likely under water. I’m not sure what will be done with this line. There is money in the new transportation bill to build the Desire line. But it may never be built.
When we think of New Orleans we must think of its rich streetcar heritage.
New Orleans should be rebuilt for sure. How about disassembling all of the historic buildings and storing them. Relocate temporarily all of the cemetaries. Invite all the States that have no place to dispose of thier clean solid waste to fill up the bowl of New Orleans. Cover the mound thus formed with the Mississippi silt that is clogging its entry in to the gulf. Rebuild the stored buildings, bring back the cemetaries. Build new homes. Repopulate the city. Celebrate the largest ,best ,most magnificent Mardi Gra the world has ever experienced.
In the meantime pray that all swuffering will soon be ended.
Greenhouseray
Surely we will not rebuild it as it was! If we cannot learn from our mistakes, we deserve what we get. There will not be enough money to keep rebuilding over and over the same places ravaged by hurricanes, etc. WE MUST BUILD SMART THIS TIME!
We must not waste our dwindling resources! I get a vote, because it is my tax money that will pay for this rebuilding, and my insurance rates that keep going up to pay for others who live on the coast. Many of us cannot afford that!
The low areas must be done differently, on pilings, as with beach houses in many places is one answer. The Dutch have some answers. And, it must be built to withstand much stronger winds. OK, make it the tourist trap it was again, but not in a way that we all pay again the next time they get hit. WE CANNOT AFORD TO KEEP REBUILDING over and over and over. The Big Easy is too easy when it comes to taking care of infrastructure and their poor. And too corrupt. I lived there; I know.
Did we not learn as little kids: “The foolish man builds his house upon the sands; the wise man builds his house upon the rock.” And, the 3 Little Pigs learned it has to be brick and strong. “It’s elementary, my dear Watson.”
This is not Rocket Science. Wake up, America. In an age of Terrorists, we cannot now afford to be the Big Spenders we are used to being. We can’t just keep rebuilding NYC, New Orleans, and whatever city goes down over and over. WE Gotta Start Playing It Smart. Or, it will be like “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” for us, right here in the USA.
fACE IT.There is no U.S. without New Orleans.It is our cultural heart and SOUL & people will be returning like it or not.The city can’t be raised like Galveston,it’s too big.Making the levees able to stop a category 5 hurricane’s storm surge at high tide will be more expensive than Americans will want to pay.SO WHY NOT MAKE A MORE FLOOD FRIENDLY NEW ORLEANS.As long as there are sattelites we will always have a couple of days warning to evacuate.Why not make all low lying homes& buildings able to withstand 20 feet of water.Every nieghborhood could have a large warehouse vault,imperviuos to water where citizens could stash valubles,even furniture before exiting.AFTER THE AREA HAS DRYED OUT CITIZENS COULD HOSE OUT THEIR HOMES AND MOVE THEIR BELONGINGS BACK! !Nature cannot be beaten so why not proceed knowing that this will happen again.THE KEY; building material could be limestone slabs& blocks.All the big river valleys that drain into the Mississippi.the Ohio,the Arkansas,the Missuori,the Illinois and all the others all share one feature.They have big limestone bluffs with active quarries lining the river valleys.Moving the stone by barge to New Orleans would be cheap because it’s down river..I know nothing about building or actual details about this proposal but if you think any of this nuttiness has merit please tell somebody ….
katrina was devistating there is no doubt about that. there is also no doubt that it WILL happen again. maybe not this decade or the next , but it will happen again. Keeping the natural water level at bay is a contant battle that has to be won at all times. why fight a battle when you dont have to. why not rebuild new orleans so the water level is at the normal stage that it wants to be at.
my proposal is to rebuild new orleans like a modern day venice. actually design it so it is to be flooded on purpose. the technology is here today right now. Venice Italy has been underwater for hundreds of years because it is sinking into the soft soil of the surrounding wetlands. just like New Orleans. they like new orleans did start above the flood stage but sank into it. we have the knowledge to rebuild the whole city upon a floating slab that is designed to be partially flooded. we have the singular opportunity to start from the ground up so that the problems of Venice arent the problems of New orleans.
if new orleans is to be rebuilt on the current site, 1 the sinking needs to be halted. which would be a big job but not an impossible one. 2 flooding danger would have to be minimized or removed. neither of which can be done if it rebuilt in the traditional mannor.
the first step is to relocate all the historic buildings that can be moved to temparary locations.
repair the levees to keep the water back while the work is being done
then to build big and i mean big foundation slabs on which the rest of the city will be built.
rebuild the buildings of new orleans with aquaducts and canals instead of streets.
final stage is to reflood the city…
The slabs will be deigned to float upon the soft soil of the delta and below the normal water line so the sinking will halt.. if the city is underwater to begin with then flooding danger is minimized or gone altogether. while storm surges will continue to be a threat , they will be easier to control than trying to hold the water back completly.
It would be a different new orleans than were used too thats for sure.
maybe a crazy idea , i dont know. i just think it would solve a fundamental problem that is bound to happen again.
GISman, the government did not set up the city so that all the black people would suffer, balck people made them selfs suffer. everyone had a chance to evacuate but alot of blacks could not. its not the governments fault that black people are poor and could not afford to find a way out. its not the governments fault that they did not get a good job to make the money to not live in poverty. blacks set them selfs up as victims but the truth is they make them selfs that way.
A new voice heard! Old Ronnie is the only sensible voice I hear in all this Tumult! He was there on a rooftop with his son & a Cat! Didn’t hear him blame anybody in any Government nor did he bring up race either! What person thinks he is qualified to sit in an armchair and blame every one under the sun, or Cloud, for not doing anything right! Which one of you have been under the stress of the moment and have tried to get unlimbered only to fall on your face when a bunch see it different than you do?
I think if the Gov. helps re-build New Orleans, then the people with business there and living there are responsible for their own insurance. I am not without heart, but I feel strongly that we are responsible for themselves. The government is not here to bail everyone out when things go wrong. We need to start supporting and taking care ourselves. Gov. help is wonderful and much appreciated, however, when given to excess, it becomes not only a way of life for some, but also keeps people dependant. And this effects every working American because when it comes down to it, WE are the ones paying for it. FEMA (non existant at the time)did not step in when Chicago burned and it was built bigger and better.
Mutzell says most uv it! How come so many guys, or gals, hate our President so much, I been carryin a Democrat card in my back pocket and used it since I was old enough to vote! Am now 87 years young but, I never hated our President, After all, More people voted for him than the other fellow, Did’n they!
Personally, I wish our Gov. would operate with common sense and not what is politically correct at the time. I have never hated a President, but I definately have disagreed with a few decissions some have made. And this is what makes us a great nation. The ability to disagree with our Gov. My grandpa always told me if you don’t vote, you can’t complain. I have never missed an election.
Tell you what hombres, The race is on by the powers that be to decide where the Moola is comin from to rebuild La,Ms,Al, or Texas! Who ya recon is gonna get tha most!
After seeing pics of the Galveston wall, It looks as if it has been purty neglected also! It shore was designed better than the NO wall as far as the cross section goes but, looks as if it could be undermined by the constant pounding of this booger headin for it now an the cross section will be useless then! We need ole Charlie to put his pencil to it and tell us what to do next!
i agree with Gisman. i actually agree. People should be entiteled to their opinion and thats one of the great things that makes this great nation such a great place. i however do not agree that the poor black population of new orleans are to blame in any way for the disaster that has befallen them. if a government is not supposed to protect its poor then what purpose does the body serve. tell me this?
i would like to take back my comment to gisman and readdress it to the real culpret: truth hurts. sorry for any confusion. i disagreed with the statements made about the blacks setting them selves up. that doesnt make any sense. did any body else notice that?
Ooh shoot i just wrote a huge comment and as soon as i hit post it come up blank! Please please tell me it worked right? I do not want to write it again if i do not have to! Either the blog bugged out or i am an idiot, the latter doesnt surprise me lol.
Effective Bed Bug Spray Kills Bed Bugs on Get in touch with. Commercial power non poisonous system. Secure and effortless to use. Appreciate sleeping inside your bed the quite same.
the question is ghoulish, and a diversion from DOING SOMETHING NOW TO HELP THESE PEOPLE.
You’re using Denny Hastert to defend your question from two days ago?!
More to the point, I don’t think either Hastert, or Jarvis, are going to get to decide.
…amazing how callous people can be when things happen in someone elses backyard. given the effect 9/11 had on you, Jeff, it puzzles me how you could even ask the question at this time; and then keep asking it when job #1 would seem to be getting the people to safety.
I have to agree with daudder. Getting the water out of New Orleans, rescuing those who need immediate attention, feeding and sheltering those currently left homeless, and cracking down on the gangs roaming the city should take priority over everything and anything else, including debating the future of this city, and ESPECIALLY including trying to score political points.
“how you could even ask the question at this time; and then keep asking it when job #1 would seem to be getting the people to safety.”
…and how does NOT talking about IT here, or switching to talking about an unrelated subject, further that objective?
It doesn’t make sense to me why we can’t supply victims with proper care.
And your talking rebuilding.
I hope everyone remembers this, when the history books look back at this Republican Congress and Administration.
Alot of Republicans around here are saying they will.
Tacky and insensitive? Yes
Bad Timing? Yes
Inevitable question? Yes
Will it come to anything? No
The more interesting question — or power play to watch — will be related to efforts to invoke eminent domain and re-layout the city. People will be lining up to line their pockets and build their power base.
But for now and the near future the focus should be exclusively on helping the people who are victims of this disaster.
Ravo, it’s tacky and disrespectful, that’s why.
Of course Hastert said that. Louisisana has a dem governette, and NO has a dem mayor. Clearly DH isn’t very interested in supporting them. But most important for him is to change the topic and circumvent any discussion about the fact that the repubs could have prevented much of this desaster.
I agree with most everyone here. This is not the time to debate these issues. Like I said on another thread, they haven’t even finished the rescue effort nor started collecting the dead bodies and idiot politicians and pundits are debating about rebuilding the city. Stop with the commentary about issues that can wait and start helping with the relief effort.
I know this point was made already, but really, ask yourself how you would have felt if someone came up to you while they were still rescuing people from the World Trade Center: So do you think we should rebuild the towers? There is too much emotion right now to give that answer the careful consideration it deserves.
Question for the day: would you underwrite construction in a giant mudhole in a rivermouth south of huge lake and on the edge of the Gulf of Mexico?
As I sit in front of my TV watching various new repoorts on the events in MI and LA I sewe all these in interviews with people such as the head of FEMA, etc.
If it were me, i’d tell the press that I have better things to do then answer repetative questions that I really don’t know the answer to. The amount of interview these officials are doing is a little rediculous. Instead of spending the time going on all the networks they could be directing their efforts towards the relief effort.
Since the Homeland Security department is “in charge” there should be perhaps 1 or 2 briefings a day to give updates on what the Governement is doing. No questions. Get the information out and get back to work.
Hey, Jeff can talk about whatever he wants.
It’s totally reasonable to be talking about this right now. It’s going to take a lot of money to help people recover, and knowing what the final objective is will make a big difference in how the money is spent. N.O. residents would start making very different plans if they knew that federal dollars would not be spent to re-create the city.
For my part, I think it should not be rebuilt. It’s crazy to throw tax dollars to these hazardous sites (outer banks of the Carolinas is another example). I’d rather spend the same money to help set people and businesses up in a new city farther from the coast.
Well the priority is to get the people out, and find and bury the dead. Who knows how many more hurricanes will strike N.O. this year and next? Florida got 4 last year. First reconstruction should be the infrastructure. Port, Oil, Electric, Interstates, etc. That will take a year at least. Some businesses will set up and some basic services will be offered. The city will come along as people want it to. The more people that move back the larger it will get. I suspect many will never return, they’ll take their insurance money and try and relocate. There should be no rush to rebuild the city. It would be criminal to rebuild any part below sea level again.
Ever visited the Netherlands, Ed? According to your description, a criminal country.
This is, of course, the wrong time to be talking about this. Everyone’s attention should be on saving lives and securing safety. However, I though John Breaux (D-LA) had a proper answer, “That’s like saying we should shut down Los Angeles because it’s built in an earthquake zone. Or like saying that after the Great Chicago fire of 1871, the U.S. government should have just abandoned the city.” Would anyone have dared utter abandoning the WTC site? I don’t think so.
Link to article: http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#075833
Maybe when N.O. rebuilt, we should make sure that we have a president who doesn’t divert money required to repair the levee system and maintain the Army Corps of Engineers to undertake ideologically-driven wars of choice.
But we go to war with the President we have, right Jeff?
What would you rather have paid for now: an effective levee system in N.O. or the invasion of Iraq?
Oh, stop weeping you emotional slobs. It’s a good question. Should we rebuild (and pay for) something that’s below sea level and has been subjected to flloding and devistating hurricanes a number of times? When Chicago burned is spawned buildings with fireproof materials. We could do that. When San Francisco fell it created new earthquake-resistant building codes. We could do that. Are we going going to raise New Orleans above sea level or are we going to create (and can we afford to create) a monsterous cat-4 hurricane-proof (the levees were built to withstand cat 3) flood control system that will keep New Orleans dry? Can we do that? Forget how you “feel” about it. (People are getting help regardless of your feelings) It’s a good question. Someone has to ask it.
First a 110% effort to rescue all of the victims. Then provide whatever it takes to relocate them to safer areas. Then cleanup the mess as best possible. Then give the area back to Gaea.
[...] – SPREAKER DENNIS HASTERT says it doesn’t make sense to rebuild New Orleans … (buzzmachine) [...]
As Atrios asked on his site:
Why is rebuilding Iraq more worthy of our tax dollars than rebuilding New Orleans?
………………………………………………………………………………………………….
As Atrios asked on his site…
Why is rebuilding Iraq more worthy of our tax dollars than rebuilding New Orleans?
………………………………………………………………………………………………….
“How can we have invaded Iraq without a plan for the aftermath?! It’s criminally responsible not to have planned for what we should do after the fighting!”
“How dare you say we should have concentrated on anything but keeping our soldiers from being killed in the initial operations?!”
Stupid line of argument, guys.
New Orleans isn’t over. Regardless of federal intervention, private insurers will pay off a lot of damages, some of which will go to people who will rebuild there because they want to live there. The city will change, almost without a doubt, but it’s not like we’re going to entomb the remains or anything.
Now, if you’re asking “should we subsidize insurance premiums for people to live in high-risk areas”, the answer is probably not. If you make it cheaper for people to live in a high-risk area without penalty, you’re changing their risk-taking calculus in a way that will encourage them to live in more risky areas.
The third question is, should you resettle New Orleans residents who have lost everything? Tougher – it’s not nice to say, “Well, if you don’t want to move away, you’ll just have to be destitute on your own,” but at the same time, NO isn’t going to recover for many many months yet.
I cant help but think that this ‘its their own damn fault for living their’ meme coming from the right, wouldnt be there if we were talking about a city that wasnt 70% Democrat-voting African Americans.
Then again the message of “NO is not worth rebuilding” may be a important defense when they have to defend why the cut funding to the Army Corps of Engineers efforts to rebuild the levees to divert the funds to Iraq.
Oh, Piffle with that race and politics crap!
However, as a practical matter, I disagree with Hastert and any number of commenters for this simple reason: Look at the map.
Where is New Orleans? New Orleans is at the mouth of the mississippi. Been there since long before the United States was the United States. Why did anyone build a city at the mouth of the mississippi on the Gulf of Mexico? Follow the Mississippi through the middle of the United States.
What is the Mississippi used for? Shipping of goods and products. It is one of the largest, natural transportation routes in this country if not the world. The largest Port in the United States. It is not only economically strategic, but also strategic in case of war directed at our shores or in case some other disaster (like hurricanes, tsunamis, etc) destroys another port.
We will rebuild NO because it has a purpose that is beyond the levees and the people that live there. it is vital to the security (economically and physically) of the US. Discussions otherwise are simply foolish.
I do believe that another intelligent poster commented on what will be the reality: lessons learned will mean new engineering and a new city.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Speaking as a former civil engineer–don’t be so optimistic about “new engineering.” Of course, we can come up with solutions. The questions are how much are you willing to spend, and how much protection do you want? The odds that we’ll have another Katrina in 2006 (and every year thereafter) is some number– 1% or 0.1%, something in that ballpark. Elected representatives, state and federal, will have to decide how much they’re willing to pay and what level of protection they want. I can assure you, to rebuild N.O. such that another Katrina will cause minimal damage and zero loss of life will be unaffordable.
Good comments above about subsidizing and incentives.
I went to college in NOLA 30 years ago and enjoyed both the city and other parts of the state. I am not anti democrat/Negro/poorpeople. But the fact is that there shouldn’t be a city by the coast that is below sea level, any more than there should be fancy expensive vacations homes on beaches that get hit by hurricanes often. Neither situation is prudent.
New Orleans has been where it is a long time and people have been worried about “the big one” a long time. This didn’t just come up and it’s not just the fault of the current crop of politicians and officials (local & federal). Inertia and denial are the primary players here just like it is along the New Madrid fault, parts of California, and numerous beachfront communities.
With the city so thoroughly destroyed, rebuilt housing stock should not be allowed below sea, river, or lake level. I own a rental property that is the lowest point for several blocks around and its basement (with its washer/dryer, HVAC, water heaters) floods or threatens to flood several times each year. After trying to work with multiple sump pumps (including battery-powered backups) and every other “solution,” it’s become clear that only removing those valuable & necessary components from the basement is the only reasonable choice.
Same goes for only rebuilding New Orleans on land that has been raised above sea/river/lake level or not rebuilding at all. Insisting on rebuilding in a dangerous area is emotionally driven and is not rational. Recognizing that has nothing to do with politics, racism, socio-cultural conditions, or anything else. It’s only being reasonable.
[...] (VÃa BuzzMachine) Esta anotación fue escrita el Viernes 02 de Septiembre, 2005 a las 3:13 am por Eduardo Arcos y está clasificada dentro de: PolitÃca, Sociedad. [...]
A question for you Jeff…
the settlers in gaza will be paid $200,000 to $300,000 for relocating much of the money coming from the US…..the families of 9/11 vicims were paid on average $2,000,000 for their loss…how much do you think the government should pay those who lived in NO to relocate.
Here’s what a genuine NewOrleans guy has to say to Hastert:
‘I did want to take the time to tell Dennis Hastert that he can go to hell. New Orleans WILL rebuild. I don’t care if it is a little toxic… that’s what rain is for. It’s not just a matter of the pride of a city. It’s a matter of NATIONAL pride — in a far more unified way than Iraq ever could be. New Orleans will not be done “on the cheap” if I or my 250,000,000 friends have anything to say about it.’
http://www.livejournal.com/users/insomnia/599039.html
Imho supporting all rebuild efforts is what the repubs are owing the city and people of New Orleans after the Bush administration s***ed up the flood prevention measures.
building on a floodplain is folly, and that’s exactly what New Orleans did. No one wants a repeat of today’s situation, so it’s entirely appropriate to discuss what it takes to rebuild the city or whether it’s worth it. This doesn’t preclude helping the residents still stranded — give money, write your congressman, do you what you can to help. But we shouldn’t close our eyes to the factors that contributed to this disaster.
‘building on a floodplain is folly, and that’s exactly what New Orleans did. ‘
You tell that the dutch people. Most of their country is below sealevel since centuries. Last real desaster was in ‘53, since then they have modernized their flood prevention. The Bush administration slashed all fundes to update the levees, otherwise a desaster of this scale could have been prevented.
A solution is FLOATING HOUSES.
The technolocy exists and this solution is actually very inexpensive. Water weighs 64 lbs per sq. ft. so a 18 inch thick styrofoam layer under a house of 1000 sq. ft would lift 100,000 lbs. plenty for a one story home. Many two story floating homes have been built in the Netherlands.
How much would this cost? Very little, Water, Gas and Electrical lines simply have a 20 foot extra coil under the home for expansion, Sewer lines use a wax ring, just like a toilet, to connect with the underground wast lines. At the corner of the home is a post with a ring around it attached to the house, this allows for the home to float upwards with no lateral movement, like a dock.
The home is now permenantly out of the floodplain. The home is only 18 inches above the ground, very similar to a foundation, so access is only two steps, or a ramp for handicap access. I would be surprised if this cost more than $5-7,000 per home. Problem permenantly solved.
California dreamer:
For everybody asshat on the right saying “its their own damn fault for living in New Orleans” I can point to three asshats on the left saying “its their own damn fault for voting for Bush.” Moreover I believe it is wholly inappropriate and extremely tasteless to be trying to score political points so soon after this disaster. Before you pop off so rightously, dig into your pocket and give money to relief agencies and, if possible, donate time to coordinating relief efforts. Then, when the job is done, bitch all you want. But I’m really not interested in hearing ANYBODY’s Monday morning quarterbacking right now.
After spending 8 hours on the roof of my home in Arabi with my son and cat in the teeth of the storm, lying on the sloping tiles and holding a large piece of wooden decking that we picked up floating by to ward off flying debris from the 120+ mph winds, I’ll leave it up to you geniuses to blame the authorities for the damage and chaos caused by Katrina. I’ve been flooded out twice now, once by Betsy in ‘64 and now by Katrina. This was orders of magnitude worse than ‘64. No amount of your idiotic “preparation” would have done a damned thing to make this much better. If you can stop the water from getting there in the first place that’s one thing, but once the ocean is out on the rampage like it was here there is nothing that can be done to stop it. Washington is to blame? The local Coast Guard did it. Give me a fucking break. Have you ever experienced the power of one of these storms or the wall of water that comes with a flash flood? Once the levees failed nothing can stop it, and civilization ends every place it goes.
100% of my Parish of St. Bernard is under 8-24 feet of water. My own home, and everything I own is gone. I’m not blaming George Bush, Ted Kennedy, or Ray Nagin for a natural disaster. Just what do you think anybody could have done. It was obvious to me ever since 7am that morning when we opened the door to the 4 ft of water outside that our survival was 100% up to us. There was nothing that anyone could do for us. My home is two blocks from the State HQ of the LA National Guard and they went under 20 ft of water too. We were rescued from our roof at 3 pm by a fisherman in a 14 ft boat who started picking people up immediately after the wind died down. But that just meant that we were out of immediate danger. There was no water, no power, no food, nothing.
You can’t bring in helicopters with power and cable lines flapping everywhere. Big boats can’t get through the narrow channels and dodge the tops of the cars and trucks under the water. We survived because our parish has a lot of folks with private boats, and they picked up the people in the parish and brought them to second stories and collection centers. We had no riots. Most of our folks spent days at the jail, the only place in the parish with emergency generators working and free of water. The police broke into pharmacies to get drugs and food stores to get food. Local pharmacist and nurses acted as doctors. It was miserable, lousy, and frightening. No sewerage, no cleanliness; diptheria city. But we got out eventually. Put these same conditions in a crowded city center where you concentrated the misery by gathering people together centrally and you get what you see on TV. There are no answers to this problem that are easy. The pictures on TV are brutal. Try it in person. But scoring cheap political points by saying that ANY amount of preparation would have prevented this is asinine. There are just too many people and too much water and destruction for troops, or helicopters, or anything humanly possible to change it. When this type of destruction occurs the level of civilization is reduced to the level of Somalia. It does not matter that the location is in the US, or anywhere else.
Almost all of us old timers realize that this was a 100 year storm and the government can’t call out the National Guard to a three state area, stockpile food and water, and mobilize for a national emergency every time a hurricane threatens. It is a risk we take, just as California risks earthquakes.
The city has been vulnerable to this ever since expansion of the old city into suburbs after WWII resulted in more and more low areas being heavily populated and requiring more and more levee protection. After riding out innumerable storms, most of which turned out to be duds, I never thought I would see something hit with this type of force.
Was the relief effort screwed up. Yes. Was the response by some inadequate, sometimes even cowardly. Sure. Did I ever expect more. No. Let them have committees, and investigations, and no end of improved procedures. It would be better if they used all the paper that they will produce to raise the levees. I’m watching a girl named Nancy Grace on TV, and I literally would like to reach inside the TV screen and strangle the stupid bitch. Sure folks said they would get people out. They thought they could too. I saw our own St. Bernard police, who stayed and shared everything with us, say they would get people out and saw the frustration when they realized how much worse it was than they thought it would be and that they just couldn’t do what they promised. Even operations that seem simple, like loading 600 people onto two car ferries to be moved downriver where buses could get them becomes complicated when the moorings have been destroyed and you have to rig catwalks for people to get from the dock to the boat. Try it with about 150-200 partially disabled and elderly people. Nothing is as easy as it looks from your armchair.
The simple solution is that the water must be kept out in the first place. The settled area in NOLA must be protected by not a 12-14 foot levee system but by a fail proof 28-30 foot levee system. Do that and maybe you solve the problem. Until the next storm hits just right.
It’s nature’s fault folks. We can’t control it. And living in America can’t always guarantee civilization. That’s something that people carry inside them. Face up to it.
I have just been reading the responses on this site and got to Ronnie’s. I just have to say YESSSSSSSSSSS. Finally someone with some intelect. You make alot of sense and I hope with all my heart things go well for you.
I don’t think the rebuilding question is insensitive because although there are thousands still trapped in New Orleans there are many more thousand who have been displaced who are asking that very question. Right now, they are sitting in Baton Rouge or Houston trying to decide what to do next. Many have already decided not to return. So addressing this debate in the media is important for these people. Will they rebuild NO? Should they? When should they? What are the priorities? They need answers to these questions to make decision about their own futures.
Ultimately, WE cannot answer these questions. New Orleans will do it itself.
In other words you might want to rebuild N.O. as before but it won’t be possible if people don’t want to return. This is what might happen.
They will rebuild the port, the french quarter and part of the CBD. But they won’t be able to rebuild the rest of the city because not enough people will return. It will be months before anyone can return, so many won’t. Most of the houses will have to be destroyed because they will have been sitting for weeks and weeks in contaminated water. (this is not like a normal flood where the water receeds in a couple of days). When people do start moving back there won’t be enough infrastructure and the crime rate will likely be high in poorer areas. Plus people will be wary of more hurricanes, climate change, etc.
They simply won’t be able to attact enough people there. I envisage New Orleans becoming a smaller town based on the port and the tourist centre and the music. More the size of Savannah or Annapolis or Williamsburg.
Maybe that won’t be a bad thing.
I’m glad i visited N.O. in 1996. It was fantastic.
It was a great town. I was just there 6 months ago. I’m so fortunate to have seen and experienced it’s uniqueness, before it was all destroyed. Proves we are all but fleas on the back of this dog called Mother Earth.
The reason this topic is under discussion is that our president and others in public service have made statements on the media that NO will be rebuilt. Period.
Yes, the first priority is to rescue and protect, but we at our keyboards can do little physically to help unless we have a shelter in our area at which to volunteer or donate articles. So we look at and debate the options and consequences.
I agree with Ronnie. But I don’t want to see my tax dollars spent to enable this to happen again and again, with more loss of life and property, and more tax dollars spent to rescue, protect, and rebuild. This includes all areas of our country that are prone to natural disasters where people insist on living. If the city is restored, let it be with private funds and not at the expense of the entire population. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN!
I think its a very sad day for America for those questioning whether New Orleans should be rebuilt. For every natural disaster that has occured in this country we have rebuilt. Cities destroyed in California due to earthquakes were rebuilt. From Florida up the coast in both directions, beachfront properties and towns destroyed by storms and hurricanes were always rebuilt. The Great Chicago fire that destroyed the city, wildfires out west that demolish small towns and multi-million dollar homes have been rebuilt. The world trade center will be replaced with a new skyscraper. Towns and sities ravaged from the the Civil War to our Revolution to Pearl Harbor. The day America decides to gives up hope to rebuild, regrow and flourish in its own backyard, will be also be a sad day for the world. America has never given hope no matter what the circumstances, for if we have, we would have a lot of towns and cities across this great land sitting desolate in ruins, America has stood strong and rebuilt for every attack on this free land, whether it was nature of man. Keep America strong, for centuries, we have rebuilt this nation over and over, and made it stronger and stronger. How can we rebuild other parts or the world if we cant even save our own people in our own backyard. Please do not coward to fear. Stay strong America. From Japan’s destruction to Germany’s destruction to the ups/downs in exploring new frontiers of space. Americans have all shared in rebuilding of our country and the world with there hard earned working money and taxes, while all the doomsdayers said to give it up, we never have, and now sure is the time not too!!! New Orleans is a Great American City. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN !!
This is a fascinating article on the need to rebuild New Orleans.
http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/050903-geopolitics_katrina.php
We have all seen those interviews on the ground in Florida or North Carolina or (now) Louisiana where people defiantly say that they will rebuild. Haven’t you ever thought to yourself, why the hell would you do that? Roll the dice and see if your house and all of your possessions can be smashed again? Maybe even lose your life?
Building your home (or a city) on sand, on a shoreline, on an island, below sea level, near a faultline, near a volcano, or on a steep slope is just not an intelligent idea. Sure, you may go an entire lifetime without incident, but if you don’t, and then you decide to stay in the same place, then don’t be surprised if a little natural selection takes place.
Not only that, but saying what I just said is absolutely fine. Oh, the PC crowd probably won’t like it, as if stating something that obvious is in some way offensive. Not only is it okay to question the wisdom of building in such a place, it is also okay to do so while the honorable task of saving and assisting those people takes place. Maybe, just maybe, someone down there will hear it, and decide to move someplace safer instead of getting themselves killed the next time around.
Rebuilding for the sake of rebuilding alone is not smart. Saying we should not talk about it now is diversionary – even when everyone is out of there, people will still say we shouldn’t talk about it, because it is too judgemental for their taste.
So, go ahead and rebuild! You have that freedom, just like I have the freedom to say what I think about it. Just don’t expect too much sympathy when it all happens again and again.
TJ
Your right about people just re-building with no plan on how to deal with the next class five storm that will hit them.
I was checking the FEMA site and saw that they now endorse building safe rooms in your house in tornado areas. They should make people add these to any house they rebuild down there. A nice large one! The one thing that stood up to the 30 foot storm surge and winds where bank vaults! Safe rooms are basically the same thing without the fancy vault door.
Hell, I bet they could put a steel waterproof door on them to keep storm surge out. Then you could put valuables in them that would get ruined otherwise if they got wet. Think of it, you drive back after a class four/five and have nothing standing, but your foot-and-a-half thick safe room full of your stuff. Things like – rare furniture, photos, documents, computers, artwork, tools, medicine, generators, and, food, and water! That’s piece of mind knowing something WILL be standing when you come home. How much is concrete and steel rebar compared to your possessions?
However, I’m betting most people won’t build them since they are new. I wonder if you can get a break on insurance if you put one in?
Check the FEMA site out -
http://www.fema.gov/mit/saferoom/
Sorry, Dion, but it’s not smart to keep on doing something just because we’ve always done it that way.
Good points, Top Jimmy! Thanks!
This is the big easy’s big opportunity to do it right.
It’s a lot of valuable property to lose, but I’d build up the land above
sea level now. I can just see the mayor’s face on that one.
If that pill is just too bitter, here’s my plan B.
All the low level buildings are going to have to be scraped. Anything not touched by water is hopefully high enough to remain. Large structures below that level could become basements, or below new street level.
Chicago has a wonderful labyrinth of underground shopping and walkways.
….what about an underground rail system?
Build it before you bury it. There might now be all kinds of advantages
that did not exist before. Make lemonade. Advertise you’re making lemonade, so the people will want to come back once it’s made.
The lake is what is too high, not the river. Couldn’t you take the dirt/earth/silt
from the bottom of the lake and use it to fill in and raise up the low lying areas of the city? Thereby also lowering the level of the water on the other side? Don’t ask me the machinery it would entail, it just sounds like a good
idea. I know it will take a lot of dirt. But, while they are taking out the dirt, they could be laying water channels to divert water out of the lake into aqueducts that don’t go into the city.
If the lake is a mile deep already, forget it- I just have never read anywhere how deep it is. I assume because of existing property, this could never have been considered before, now it can. Property lines would simply move up in height.
Here is a really great article written in 2000 about all the plans on the table that the local and state governments threw out due to cost. It’s a short read, called the Lost City of New Orleans. The last plan -Coast 2050 is diverting water and rebuilding the wetlands. It’s very sensible plan, which is probably why it won’t get done.
You can keep building the levee 30- 40′ high,
but with the city sinking, eventually you’ll have everything that was just lost, only with the pressure of 30′ of water all around you. Who’s going to insure that, much less want to live there?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_15_11/ai_68642805
Let’s see. New Orleans is about 100 square miles that needs to be raised about an average of 18 feet. The cost of commercial fill is about $2 a cubic yard delivered in bulk. That is about 5 billion dollars (3 Billion to Halliburton just to grease the sled). New 10 foot concrete pillings will be about $50,000 per house (250,000 houses) or about 13 billion to get everyone 20 foot above sea level and provide incredible amount of new off street parking below the houses and businesses. The city can bond 5 billion to create all new underground utilities including communications. Tax revenue from a new double wide Bourbon Street and enhanced tourist attraction will easily pay the 250 million bond debt interest. The fed will have to pick up the I-10 hurricane improvements at 2 billion. Private insurance can pick up the 26 billion to rebuild every house to cat 5 standard at an average $100,000 per house. The state, city, and fed can share the 20 billion cost to rebuild the roads and create a beautiful system of canals that make every home and project house a waterfront or waterview property, provide boat access for everyone to Lake Pontchartrain and the gulf, and permanently eliminate the threat of flooding from rain or hurricane. Boat sales will go through the roof. Reconstrtuction jobs will be plentiful. Income will go up. Poverty will go down. Business will flock in. New Orleans will be rocking like never before. There will even be a downtown gondolier business. The average homeowner can sell out for 3/4 million dollars and move elsewhere or enjoy living in the most modern and beautiful city in the world. Homeowners will have to chip in if they they want to upgrade but there will be plenty of good jobs to allow that. Throw in 14 billion fed money to fix the delta. The total cost to local, state, and fed to create the finest seaside city in the world is less than 100 billion. Private donations can pay to raise historical structures and the French Quarter. In ten years we could redo 9 other seaside cities which all suffer from subsidence. The economic impact of all that infrastructure investment might restore Wall Street and balance the budget. Or we can drop those same trillion bucks in Iraq for more “security.” Charity begins at home. We just need imaginative local, state, and federal leadership, not leadership that can’t imagine anything. Now what is really going to happen is that the fed is going to blow 100 billion to patch up the city and leave it in the same mess it is in now!
Sound just like what happened after Hurricane Andrew in 1992-Democrats blame, blame, blame!
When the American people get the real story and scope of what really happend on the Gulf Coast (90,000 square miles affected). A Governor who is incompetant and a Mayor who did not take it serious. A President who reacted 3 days before the storm hit. Hell the Commander who is running the NO airport was in Cairo Egypt on Friday night and on the ground Wednesday night!!
Three of the major models agreed 4 days out on the course and intensity-but some people are just not smart enough.
Our Bush here in Florida get’s it, and it is no matter where you think the storm is going you get the people mobilized and prepared.
I really want to know if all you Lib’s really want 1878’s Posse Commitatus suspended-I can hear you all cry “my rights are being violated by the US armed forces”
Do not be affraid that you do not understand half of this-thats ok you are LIB’S!!
take the politics out of it. is it the time to inquire as to rebuilding ? it MUST be addressed asap. this is one of the most important ports in the world. the question should not be where or when to rebuild but how to rebuild and how do we make it safe. since the dawn of man we have placed ourselves in harms way and we will continue to do so due to commerce and trade. we know that in reality there is NO safe place on the mississippi.we saw this years ago in the massive floods. new orleans will not be moved in any direction but up. i’ve read opinion after opinion concerning flood remedies such as floating houses or filling in the bowl of this city with dirt. but we are not looking at just houses. we are looking at huge buildings that house some of the largest corporations in the world. the way i see it, the city must be pumped dry, bulldozed and burned. then you can start the task of errecting the pylons that will be needed to carry the weight of a honeycomb foundation that you can build your city upon at a height of 25 – 30 feet above sea level. expensive ? Yes ! but either way it will cost hundreds of billions of dollars to relocate the city or fill in the bowl which will still feel the errosion of the river and lake. the city must be elevated to a safe height. do it right…do it once…no more worries.
i agree with scherbel if it can be done…it should.
I agree that we do need to know the final objective to begin the enormous project of rebuilding, but let’s not get crazy. The French Quarter and the CBD had minimal damage, leave it alone. Higher elevation neighborhoods should be left as legacy neighborhoods, permitted to remain with levees placed to give them moderate protection. The lower sections of the city should be purchased and created into a huge park, zoo, and other recreation facilities over which the new transit system would run bringing people into the old city from new planned communities on higher ground outside the old boundries. Top it off by building to host the olympics in 2012. Why not start exploring the ideas of a low fuel, mass transport. green city here, make the developments dense, mixed income, with all the neccessary neighborhood amenities within walking distance, centered around transit hubs. We have an opportunity to build the model sustainable city, let’s do it.
Oh yeah, a park, I love sitting around a stagnant pond getting mosquito bites. I say we salvage anything of value from the swamp that now is New Orleans, and move on. If we are going to use tax money to build these people a new town, I suggest doing it somewhere else. An Olympic City?.. get serious, move the damn city somewhere else so it wont get hit again. Jesus people, this is common sense. If a baby gets burned from a candle it remembers not to touch candles again. How hard it is to understand. Lets (tax payers) cut out losses and move on.
SOLUTIONS
A wise person once said “For every problem there is a solution.”
Since we are heading in this direction, with the deterioration of fossil fuel. We need to insert ideas of energy saving solutions, for the entire area of destruction, which we need to rebuild.
When the rest of the country begins to enter the crisis mode, and there will be, we will have the perfect model of existence to build our own commuities on.
Now with that said, let all wise persons proceed.
New Orleans is one of the most important black cities in the South and should be restored to its former self. Its 70% black population should not be all living within feet of the levees. It seems that the city was deliberately setup that way, so whenever the levees did fail, the black population would suffer heavy losses and their property could be taken by the government and used for other purposes. Nobody cared about getting relief down there sooner because who cares about poor black people, right? We are only 14% of the population of the U.S., with most of it living down South. New Orleans will not be the same without its huge black population; African-Americans give the region diversity and a culture like no other in the World. Every black person all over the world should feel some sorrow for what happened down there. Last but not least, DO NOT CONFUSE LOOTERS WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO SURVIVE BECAUSE OF LACK OF BASIC NECESSITIES THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED. I WOULD BE TAKING FROM THESE STORES TOO, IF IT MEANT MY SURVIVAL. DON’T BE SO QUICK TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ON PEOPLE IF YOU DON’T KNOW THE SEVERITY OF THEIR SITUATION. DON’T ASSUME THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE THE ONLY ONES DOING IT TOO; REMEMBER NEW ORLEANS IS 70% BLACK, BUT ALSO 30% NON-BLACK!!!
The reality of this great loss is that most of the population does not have the economic ability to wait 9 months to move back home. Any rebuilding will take 12 to 18 months to complete at best. The majority of the pre-disaster population is not going home.
Businesses are not going to wait 12 to 14 months to go home either. I believe that the city will be rebuilt but it will be 30% of its original size.
I’m sitting in Lafayette, Louisiana, a city about 120 miles northwest of New Orleans. As I read the arguments against spending ‘my tax money’ to rebuild the Crescent City I am reminded of the innumerable ways in which my own tax money has been spent over the years. We have rebuilt thousands of homes throughout the midwest when tornados sweep through, Homestead, Florida was rebuilt after Andrew, we’re spending billions in New York City to rebuild after the 9/11 attacks, Dennis Hastert’s Congressional website brags about the Federal disaster relief going to all but one county in Illinois due to a drought (should we force the farmers of Illinois to relocate to an area less prone to dry weather?), the nuclear power industry is exempted by Congress from having to cover themselves adequately by privately obtained insurance, and the list goes on and on. Every place in this nation has its own problems with natural disasters. It seems that the only ones some folks wish to subsidize are their own. I have to say that it is impossible to know how severe future storms will be. Will we see catagory six or seven added to the Saffir-Simpson scale? Who can tell? But I do know that we could have done much better by New Orleans as we could have done for many problems this country has faced over the years. However it is in the nature of politics in this country that the squeeky wheel gets the grease and the wheel about to fall off gets ignored until it does. I hate to sound pessimistic but this will probably be another situation in which we blame each other, politicians congratulate themselves for investigating and finding fault everywhere but with them and we continue our penny wise and pound foolish ways.
As a refugee from New Orleans currently sheltering in Baton Rouge, I’ve got a few thoughts. Most importantly, New Orleans CAN be made safe IF Federal resources are applied. Levees can be raised to withstand Cat 5 storms (Nola’s levees were built to hold up against Cat 3’s – Katrina was a Cat 4). The city can be further partitioned into sections with internal levees, which would act like watertight compartments on ships, isolating flooded sectors but leaving remaining areas dry. The final key to safety involves investing in the eroding wetlands surrounding the city and buffering it from the open waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Remember that, for New Orleans, the danger is not so much wind as it is water. Much like the Thames River barrier in England, the seaward entrance to Lake Pontchartrain (the Rigolets & Chef Menteur passes) can be barricaded to stop a storm surge. Indeed, such a project was proposed in the aftermath of Hurricane Betsy (1965), but was quashed for some reason. Nixon budget cuts perhaps? The cost will be great, but, as Kat mentions above, it could well be peanuts compared with the cost of completely reprogramming our nation’s infrastructure as a consequence of abandoning New Orleans’ port, sited near the mouth of the river system which drains (and provides commercial access to) one-third of our nation’s lower-48 land area. Remember, too that while New Orleans itself has (or had) just under 500,000 inhabitants, the metro area – no higher in elevation and no less vulnerable to levee collapses – comprises over 1.3 million residents. That’s a lot of people to move wholesale. As others have noted, global warming, rising sea levels and the capricious course of the Mississippi River are other perils, but a careful combination of engineering and wetland regeneration can probably effectively combat this. Indeed, New Orleans could serve as a technological testing ground, as cities like New York, Singapore and London are not so far above sea level in many places that they wouldn’t be affected in short order by the same sea level trends.
I too am alternately saddened and enraged by the behavior of what is, TO BE SURE, a small minority of the city’s poor. And I do think that a careful distinction needs to be made between those taking necessities and those stealing plasma-screen TVs or carjacking their neighbors. Nonetheless, these scenes will surely pose an enormous stumbling block to attracting new investment. However, maybe New Orleans will emerge from Katrina’s trials with far less poverty, the breeding ground for the depravity that the nation witnessed. One effect of this storm could be a demographic reshaping of the city. Tens of thousands of poor New Orleanians have been evacuated to the more vigorous economic climate of Houston, Dallas, etc. Let them better themselves; their chances will certainly be better there. For arguably more than 100 years, New Orleans has been caught in a vicious bind, the chicken-and-egg paradox at its most vivid: the city fails to attract sufficient investment because of its crushing poverty and consequent social ills, but poverty cannot be ameliorated without sufficient investment. Perhaps that cycle will now be broken. On a more micro level, the city itself has been recently mired in a cycle of vigilante killings and retribution killings; that cycle has obviously been disrupted, and the opportunity exists to quash it for good.
Visionary urban design could induce, if not private insurers, than perhaps federal and state agencies to write flood insurance for a rebuilt New Orleans. The city’s geography is simple, but musn’t be over-simplified. Areas along the river, and extending back from its banks for 1/2-1 mile are ABOVE sea level. Also above sea level are the parks and neighborhoods reclaimed in the 1920s from Lake Pontchartrain at the northernmost boundary of the city. BECAUSE of this geography, unsurprisingly, practically all of the city’s historic built environment lies within the former zone (i.e., near the river). Look at the maps of the areas flooded for confirmation. Not only the French Quarter was spared. This historic swath of the city contains perhaps 100,000 residents and possesses mile after mile of stunning architecture and beautiful boulevards, still there – and dry – according to the satellite photos I’ve examined. Much of the rest of the city could be rebuilt as a marvel of sensitive eco-design: houses on tall piers/neighborhoods of marshy preserves teeming with life and interlaced with canals, internal levees (mentioned earlier) topped with bike paths, etc.
I’ll leave the cultural rhapsodizing to others; many can do it beautifully, and I agree with their sentiments wholeheartedly. Remember, though, that in a nation where everywhere seems to be looking increasingly like everywhere else, there is one soulful, special place. It is not destroyed, only parts of it are. And the best bits remain. And I am determined to return.
Let’s rebuild New Orleans (ON HIGH GROUND). It is only a matter of time before another storm hits the area again…and then what?
GISMAN, you are a moron!
asdfasd, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I don’t see you writing anything that is worth reading. I have family down there that is affected by this disaster and, yes, they are African-American. So that’s where I’m coming from. Don’t be so quick to judge a book by its cover!
The St. Charles Av. streetcar line is the oldest continuously operating rail line in the country. It began in the 1830’s with tiny steam locomotives. The line was converted to electricity as I recall in the late 1800’s. The cars which have been operating were built by the Obscure Perley Thomas company of Northy Carolina. Many of these cars have been operating from the mid 1920’s forward. Much of the line is in neutral ground except for the downtown area. I hope this has been saved.
I should imagine that the Riverside line probably has not been saved. The brand new restoration of the Canal St. line (began last year after an absence of 40 years) surely was underwater and the home built stareetcars were likely under water. I’m not sure what will be done with this line. There is money in the new transportation bill to build the Desire line. But it may never be built.
When we think of New Orleans we must think of its rich streetcar heritage.
New Orleans should be rebuilt for sure. How about disassembling all of the historic buildings and storing them. Relocate temporarily all of the cemetaries. Invite all the States that have no place to dispose of thier clean solid waste to fill up the bowl of New Orleans. Cover the mound thus formed with the Mississippi silt that is clogging its entry in to the gulf. Rebuild the stored buildings, bring back the cemetaries. Build new homes. Repopulate the city. Celebrate the largest ,best ,most magnificent Mardi Gra the world has ever experienced.
In the meantime pray that all swuffering will soon be ended.
Greenhouseray
Surely we will not rebuild it as it was! If we cannot learn from our mistakes, we deserve what we get. There will not be enough money to keep rebuilding over and over the same places ravaged by hurricanes, etc. WE MUST BUILD SMART THIS TIME!
We must not waste our dwindling resources! I get a vote, because it is my tax money that will pay for this rebuilding, and my insurance rates that keep going up to pay for others who live on the coast. Many of us cannot afford that!
The low areas must be done differently, on pilings, as with beach houses in many places is one answer. The Dutch have some answers. And, it must be built to withstand much stronger winds. OK, make it the tourist trap it was again, but not in a way that we all pay again the next time they get hit. WE CANNOT AFORD TO KEEP REBUILDING over and over and over. The Big Easy is too easy when it comes to taking care of infrastructure and their poor. And too corrupt. I lived there; I know.
Did we not learn as little kids: “The foolish man builds his house upon the sands; the wise man builds his house upon the rock.” And, the 3 Little Pigs learned it has to be brick and strong. “It’s elementary, my dear Watson.”
This is not Rocket Science. Wake up, America. In an age of Terrorists, we cannot now afford to be the Big Spenders we are used to being. We can’t just keep rebuilding NYC, New Orleans, and whatever city goes down over and over. WE Gotta Start Playing It Smart. Or, it will be like “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” for us, right here in the USA.
fACE IT.There is no U.S. without New Orleans.It is our cultural heart and SOUL & people will be returning like it or not.The city can’t be raised like Galveston,it’s too big.Making the levees able to stop a category 5 hurricane’s storm surge at high tide will be more expensive than Americans will want to pay.SO WHY NOT MAKE A MORE FLOOD FRIENDLY NEW ORLEANS.As long as there are sattelites we will always have a couple of days warning to evacuate.Why not make all low lying homes& buildings able to withstand 20 feet of water.Every nieghborhood could have a large warehouse vault,imperviuos to water where citizens could stash valubles,even furniture before exiting.AFTER THE AREA HAS DRYED OUT CITIZENS COULD HOSE OUT THEIR HOMES AND MOVE THEIR BELONGINGS BACK! !Nature cannot be beaten so why not proceed knowing that this will happen again.THE KEY; building material could be limestone slabs& blocks.All the big river valleys that drain into the Mississippi.the Ohio,the Arkansas,the Missuori,the Illinois and all the others all share one feature.They have big limestone bluffs with active quarries lining the river valleys.Moving the stone by barge to New Orleans would be cheap because it’s down river..I know nothing about building or actual details about this proposal but if you think any of this nuttiness has merit please tell somebody ….
katrina was devistating there is no doubt about that. there is also no doubt that it WILL happen again. maybe not this decade or the next , but it will happen again. Keeping the natural water level at bay is a contant battle that has to be won at all times. why fight a battle when you dont have to. why not rebuild new orleans so the water level is at the normal stage that it wants to be at.
my proposal is to rebuild new orleans like a modern day venice. actually design it so it is to be flooded on purpose. the technology is here today right now. Venice Italy has been underwater for hundreds of years because it is sinking into the soft soil of the surrounding wetlands. just like New Orleans. they like new orleans did start above the flood stage but sank into it. we have the knowledge to rebuild the whole city upon a floating slab that is designed to be partially flooded. we have the singular opportunity to start from the ground up so that the problems of Venice arent the problems of New orleans.
if new orleans is to be rebuilt on the current site, 1 the sinking needs to be halted. which would be a big job but not an impossible one. 2 flooding danger would have to be minimized or removed. neither of which can be done if it rebuilt in the traditional mannor.
the first step is to relocate all the historic buildings that can be moved to temparary locations.
repair the levees to keep the water back while the work is being done
then to build big and i mean big foundation slabs on which the rest of the city will be built.
rebuild the buildings of new orleans with aquaducts and canals instead of streets.
final stage is to reflood the city…
The slabs will be deigned to float upon the soft soil of the delta and below the normal water line so the sinking will halt.. if the city is underwater to begin with then flooding danger is minimized or gone altogether. while storm surges will continue to be a threat , they will be easier to control than trying to hold the water back completly.
It would be a different new orleans than were used too thats for sure.
maybe a crazy idea , i dont know. i just think it would solve a fundamental problem that is bound to happen again.
GISman, the government did not set up the city so that all the black people would suffer, balck people made them selfs suffer. everyone had a chance to evacuate but alot of blacks could not. its not the governments fault that black people are poor and could not afford to find a way out. its not the governments fault that they did not get a good job to make the money to not live in poverty. blacks set them selfs up as victims but the truth is they make them selfs that way.
A new voice heard! Old Ronnie is the only sensible voice I hear in all this Tumult! He was there on a rooftop with his son & a Cat! Didn’t hear him blame anybody in any Government nor did he bring up race either! What person thinks he is qualified to sit in an armchair and blame every one under the sun, or Cloud, for not doing anything right! Which one of you have been under the stress of the moment and have tried to get unlimbered only to fall on your face when a bunch see it different than you do?
I think if the Gov. helps re-build New Orleans, then the people with business there and living there are responsible for their own insurance. I am not without heart, but I feel strongly that we are responsible for themselves. The government is not here to bail everyone out when things go wrong. We need to start supporting and taking care ourselves. Gov. help is wonderful and much appreciated, however, when given to excess, it becomes not only a way of life for some, but also keeps people dependant. And this effects every working American because when it comes down to it, WE are the ones paying for it. FEMA (non existant at the time)did not step in when Chicago burned and it was built bigger and better.
Mutzell says most uv it! How come so many guys, or gals, hate our President so much, I been carryin a Democrat card in my back pocket and used it since I was old enough to vote! Am now 87 years young but, I never hated our President, After all, More people voted for him than the other fellow, Did’n they!
Personally, I wish our Gov. would operate with common sense and not what is politically correct at the time. I have never hated a President, but I definately have disagreed with a few decissions some have made. And this is what makes us a great nation. The ability to disagree with our Gov. My grandpa always told me if you don’t vote, you can’t complain. I have never missed an election.
Tell you what hombres, The race is on by the powers that be to decide where the Moola is comin from to rebuild La,Ms,Al, or Texas! Who ya recon is gonna get tha most!
After seeing pics of the Galveston wall, It looks as if it has been purty neglected also! It shore was designed better than the NO wall as far as the cross section goes but, looks as if it could be undermined by the constant pounding of this booger headin for it now an the cross section will be useless then! We need ole Charlie to put his pencil to it and tell us what to do next!
i agree with Gisman. i actually agree. People should be entiteled to their opinion and thats one of the great things that makes this great nation such a great place. i however do not agree that the poor black population of new orleans are to blame in any way for the disaster that has befallen them. if a government is not supposed to protect its poor then what purpose does the body serve. tell me this?
i would like to take back my comment to gisman and readdress it to the real culpret: truth hurts. sorry for any confusion. i disagreed with the statements made about the blacks setting them selves up. that doesnt make any sense. did any body else notice that?
Ooh shoot i just wrote a huge comment and as soon as i hit post it come up blank! Please please tell me it worked right? I do not want to write it again if i do not have to! Either the blog bugged out or i am an idiot, the latter doesnt surprise me lol.
Effective Bed Bug Spray Kills Bed Bugs on Get in touch with. Commercial power non poisonous system. Secure and effortless to use. Appreciate sleeping inside your bed the quite same.