His domestic terrorism had nothing to do with Christianity.

Christ’s words do not condone violence. I’m sure you must know that. So, any Christian committing an act of violence is doing it IN SPITE OF Christ’s words.

Not so with Muslamics. The Koran commands them to “Kill the Unbelievers.”

That’s because nobody was loudly taking their god’s name in vain when they blew the place up.

This is *not* like the case of New York City.

Get it?

Everything I read about IFC’s plan to “explain”, just made me furious. So I have to wonder, did Gov Pataki just think Freedom Center…..”hmmm, I am for Freedom”……….rather like the anti-war protesters just marching along with communists? Does not matter, Pataki needs to tell me why everything he read about IFC did not make him just as furious. He should be glad I am not his voter.

Nice work JJ.

Thanks for saying the things that need to be said. It’s hard to state the case so clearly knowing that you will be labeled a pile of derogatory things. I’ve tried to make the same commonsensical case to my more liberal friends and they just don’t get it.

I like to tell them their naivety reminds me of the scene in that lame “Independence Day” flick where all the idealists ran up to the top of the empire state building to meet the alien invaders only to be fried in place holding their “Welcome to Earth” signs.

I think out of all that is wrong with geopolitical discourse these days (and there’s a lot wrong), the idea that anyone can marginalize the true motives of the Islamic movement just completely mystifies me. Are we just that dumb?

[chuckle… snort] Like THAT ever stopped them!

No, but historically it certainly did reform Christianity at some point and that’s the difference with Islam. The Reformation. Islam hasn’t had one and resists one. the violence Jihad as a a tentant of Islam violates nothing.

So chuckle/snort all you want.

All those events in the Old Testament, as a Christian do you believe that they did not occur?

Give it up. Most Christians and Jews understand metaphors and parables for what they are. Your inane attempt to assume that most Christians and Jews are literalists is stupid and disingenuous.

Nice try. But stuck on stupid and playing games separates the lame from the serious.

Sorry that your like thinking lame memorial got trashed. Guess you’ll have to take your toys to another playground with less adult supervision.

[chuckle... snort] Like THAT ever stopped them!

Ravo,
I understand that you follow different rules than those laid down in the old testament (the love of the 10 commandments by US christians puzzles me though). What I was trying to point out is that I had thought that you took the God of the old and the God of the new to be one and the same – and also perfect.
So how does a christian reconcile the teachings of one with the far more violent teachings of the other? And why can’t followers of other faiths do the same?
——–

“If they can’t accept our ways, then they need to go back to where they came from… Hunt them like the animals they are–in mosques, madrasas,CAIR offices, wherever.”

Kat,
I assume by “accept our ways” you mean give up Islam?
Well hell, at least you sacked up and stated your position, Athena1040 is still dithering around like a weak-kneed punk.
——————

Speaking of which…
Athena1040,
Thanks for telling me who I have been talking to and what they have been saying. It’s good that you know so much about me and where I come from.

As for your points: Ok… I concede them all. Religion is dangerous and has no place in the public square. (damn, that was easy)

Now then, that still didn’t get rid of the problem. So what next? The “tiny minority” which I so foolishly rely on (so you say), argues that Islam must change. You say this is impossible. What now?

From what I picked up in Church…..

For Christians the new replaces the old…hence the name Christianity. There was no Christianity before Christ…as all who eventually followed Christ in his day, were Jewish….who came to believe Christ was the Son of God.

Since Jewish folks don’t believe in Christ as being the Son of God, they therefore do not accept the new Convenant.

Ahem. Not for us it didn’t. And I am tired of people stereotyping the Jewish scriptures this way. The “Old” Testament (it’s our only one) is a very complex collection of myths, laws, parables, poetry, theology, philosophy …. and compassionate precepts and radical calls for social justice. It inspired Martin Luther King and the first Protestants and the Pilgrims and many others.

If some Christians want to ignore it, you are ignoring the source of wisdom that your Christ studied and believed in.

I didn’t say the Old Testament was false. I said it was replaced. It was not invalidated. When Christ came, there simply was no more need for an eye for eye, or sacrifices on the alter etc……as Christ atoned for all sin.

God worked thru Him, to replace the old Convenant with a new one, based on love, one that calls simply to accept His gift of love, then one is saved, and to strive to live how he showed the world to live.

Hey, Will, I’m no preacher,…but that is how I understand it to be.

A)Compare Theology with Theology: Christianty teaches that Christ is the exemplar. Christ taught that “my kingdom is NOT of this world” and “turn the other cheek.” The use of violence violates Christian teaching. Mohammed is the examplar in Islam. He taught that the “way of the sword is the way to heaven.” He killed many people and is considered the “perfect man.”

B) Compare Orthodox Christianity with Orthodox Islam. Muslims who reject the duty of Jihad or who reject Sharia law are apostates. If they asserted any deviation from support of Sharia law in a Muslim country they would be jailed for apostasy. Only those “liberal” Muslims, a tiny handful living in the protection of the West, talk about reforming Islam.

Osama Ben Laden is Orthodox Muslim and according to his own statements it is his goal to RESTORE the Caliphate. Believe him and believe Taslima Nasrin.

The “tiny minority” that Will is relying on HAS NO POWER in the Islamic world. Depending on them is dangerous. This is what Taslima Nasrin is trying to tell YOU, Will, believe her.

C)There are no true Christian theocracies in existence today BUT there are true Islamic theocracies. Islam, as fully practiced, is available for direct observation in Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the countries of the Organization of Islamic States. Look at life there and you will see TRUE ISLAM as lived by over a billion Orthodox Muslims. As I said the tiny minority of Westernized Muslims that speak on college campuses are NOT MAINSTREAM Muslims.

D) Take Islam at its word. The Muslims Student Association at my local state university has postings on its website supporting the adoption of polygamy. Will, they really mean it when they say they want Sharia law and they are working for it HERE AND NOW in the United States

Before I respond to Ravo though, a quick question: To all those of you who believe that the only Islam is fundamentalist Islam, and that it can never be changed or modified to fit with democratic society, what is your solution? How shall we deal with this threat of ever-present hidden assasins in our midst (as kat so spine-chillingly described).
Let us say that you convince me, and having seen the light I awake tomorrow with the clear realization that Islam cannot exist in accordance with the principles that I hold so dear.

What then? (c’mon, step up to the plate, don’t be shy)
————–
Ravo,

Good heavens, have you just tossed aside the entire Old Testament on behalf of all christians? Good for you! Now get rid of the New as well and we’ll be making real progress.

But wait a minute…. We might have a slight contradiction here.

All those events in the Old Testament, as a CHRISTian do you believe that they did not occur? Or was that some other god giving orders? Or was that god somehow not as perfect as the one in the New? (hint: Matthew 5:48)

And I must wonder, what is Jesus talking about in Matthew 22:29?
-”You are in error, because you do not know the scriptures, or the power of God.”

– Then there’s this little gem from John 5:45, Jesus: “If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Christianity came only AFTER Christ was born.

CHRIST as in Christianity did not exist back in the days of the old Testament.

CHRISTianity is the NEW Testament only….the one Christ gave to his followers, and it REPLACED the old covenant with God.

Your Muslim friends may be as ignorant now of the Koran as you are of Christianity, but the time will come when they either have to slay you if you won’t submit to Islam, or by refusing to slay you, become what is called an apostate, and will be slain themselves.

Islam uses the term “useful idiot” for those thinking like you.

http://faithfreedom.org will educate you.

For that very reason Athena1040, when someone starts talking about putting the rules of the Old Testament on the walls of a school I start sweating. Political Islam is dangerous, as is political Christianity (though this one has lost its grip as of late, it is trying to hold-on and re-establish its grasp here in the states).

Some Muslims have changed, just as some Christians have abandoned the nastier bits of the old testament. We need to encourage more of that change. I’m not too sure what alternate suggestion you are hinting at in your comments though, spell it out for me.

But how did we get here? I thought this was a comment thread about Ground Zero.

Please google Taslima Nasrin and read what she has to say. Ms. Nasrin is a physician who was born and raised in Bangladesh. She now lives in hiding in Switzerland, living under a fatwa. Afraid for her life.

What caused this fatwa.? She wrote a book exposing what life in Islamic Bangladesh is like for women.

Here is the message that she is trying so hard to get out. Mainstream Muslims support sharia law. Sharia law is Islam and Islam is sharia law.
To be a Muslim is to support Sharia law. Most Muslims will not take up arms to advance Islam BUT they consider themselves to have a religious duty to do so.

Wake up!! Is it going to take us losing an entire city to a dirty bomb?

You think that you represent “enlightened” opinion when you drone on about “only a tiny minority” of Muslims support Sharia law. You are wrong.
The Telegraph did a recent survery of English Muslims. Only 30% of them stated that they had loyalty to Britian and 70% of them stated that they would support Sharia law in Britain.

Wake up. Islam has always announced itself and told us exactly what it is. Why don’t you take them at their word.

They actually have gotten with the program. Try reading Bernard Lewis, a respected historian of Islam and he will tell you that Mohammed has always been understood to preach militaristic expansion of the power of Islam. Every Muslim understands that.

Islam is a militaristic and imperialistic political system begun by Mohammed who claimed to be a prophet of God. Mohammed was a warlod and led many battles. He slaughtered prisoners of war, took women and children as slaves and concubines and plundered the villages of those his conquered. Mohammed is considered the “perfect man” and everything about him is considered above criticism. Criticizing the Prophet in an Islamic country will get you jailed or worse.

Islam continued after the death of Mohammed to expand under the Caliphate. From 700 to 1400 Islam spread its influence through war after war after conquering war. They conquered the Middle East wresting it from the control of the Christian Byzantine Empire. They conquered a Christian Egypt and spread across North Africa to Spain. They were stopped in France by Charles Martel and in the East at the Gates of Vienna.

Muslims held control of Eastern Europe for hundreds of years. They subdued the native Christian population by treating them as a population of slaves for the plucking.

Hindu historians estimate that Muslims killed 80 million Hindus in the campaing to conquer India. Muslims conquered the northern portion of India.

Muslims created the slave trade in Black Africans. Robert Segal, a socialist by the way, documented the Muslims slave trade in a book called “Islam’s Black Slaves.’ It was Muslim slave traders that sold black african slaves to the West. It was the West the began the modern moverment to end slavery.

Mohammed always taught that Islam was to be expanded by the sword and there has been no authoritative renunciation of that command. Islam divides the world into the House of War (the non-Muslim world) and the House of Peace the Muslim world.

Yes, Kat and Will, it is true, your apologist university teachers have been hoodwinked. In the 19th Century, the West had full knowledge of Islam’s ugly and bloody history, it was taught to everyone.

Edward Said fought a war to hide that knowledge and to make us discredit it. Again, I invite you to read Bernard Lewis.

As to Christianity, Jesus said that “My kingdom is not of this world.” Although Christianity, has at times been a state religion, it is structured to exist without official government backing, Islam is not. Islam is a political system.

People like you, I am afraid, my dear friends, are what Lenin would call “useful idiots.”

Islam is attacking the entire world. Isreal, Chechnya, Kenra, Nigeria, Thailand, Australia, Spain, England and the United States.

Everything I had reported in this post can be confirmed through reading Bernard Lewis, again the Dean of American historians of Islam.

Wake up before it is too late, guys. What is it going to take? Maybe the murder of 3,0000 people. Atta killed in the name of Islam, and thousands of Muslims celebrated the day. Wake up.