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I don’t care if reporters are covering news for the web or for print. The point is, you need paid people to do it, and you need institutions that can make enough money to pay them. That’s not the “middle man” — that’s reality.

Let’s quit wasting time talking about old and new media or insulting me for working for a newspaper. The world will always need journalists. They may be working in different ways, for different media, but if we’re going to have a democracy, they will have to be there.

I very much disagree. Craigslist is the most local thing out there. With the exception of spam, the items being offered are put up there by people in your own city (or at least region). Ebay is very non-local; when you find a doo-dad you’d like to buy, it could be around the corner, or it could be thousands of miles away. The difference is evident in the goods found on either site. You’re unlikely in most Craigslist markets to find the salt shaker to match the pepper shaker you had bought as a pair in Omaha on your honeymoon back in ‘63, but have since lost. You probably can on Ebay.

“Sure, we can morn[sic] the newspapers. But, they built their casket by not growing with the changing needs of their readers.”

Exactly. And in my experience over the past decade, most don’t want to change. That’s not entirely fair. They want to change, but with their own rules and at their own pace. As another poster wrote, newspapers are behind the tech curve because they’ve been trying to put out a great print edition. If that’s really the case, they should stay out of this online mess altogether. A newspaper that will not put full effort into developing the “next big thing” must accept that they’ll forever be behind. It won’t be their death; most magazines do fine without any classified advertising.

I was there to see Craig do his spiel for the folks of AAN. I felt a little sorry for him. Not entirely sorry, I mean, the guy is a success story. But the editors, publishers and managers were making the most irrational, emotional attacks on him. One likened him to a B-52 Bomber. Nice. And classy, too. I kept my questions to the technical side, that which has some value for future development, and not bitching about the past.

http://www.northboard.net/

Wal-Mart doesn’t thrill me aesthetically, so I avoid it at all costs. The reasons for my distaste are legion, so I won’t bother to list them here. Suffice it to say, I don’t think the store elevates humanity one whit. I am glad, however, that Wal-Mart provided Ronnie from NOLA with necessary goods in his time of need. In a similar situation, I’d likely shop there, too. But it would take a major disaster.

I don’t use Craigslist much, if at all. I just forget to, I guess. But I also rarely read the classifieds. Suppose I’m either satisfied or lazy. And I barely notice ads.

I typically buy products for highly specific uses, and the rest of the time, I stick to the basics.

Oh, and who wants to read ads on a Blackberry? Those are the options that an all-digital worrld might leave us. I’ll take options, thank you very muuch.

“Craig isn’t new media or old media; he’s a chain business. That’s why he annoys me when he talks about community.”

But don’t you see that what Craigslist does is basically provide a forum for the community? He created something simple that lets users connect with each other and keep money in the community. That’s about it. They’re just not doing it through the newspaper. I mean, why write emails? The postal service does a fine job.

Maybe I can’t understand because I’m someone that works on the internet as a programmer. We’re CONSTANTLY adapting. New language emerges? We have to know it. I didn’t learn the Java language in college, but that’s what I do now. I have a book in front of me right now that’ll teach me a new Java toolset. I learned HTML a while back; what happened when CSS came out? I picked up on that. I can’t relate to friends of mine that have been doing the same thing for the past 10 years, and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to think people should be able to adapt.

Lastly, a digital-only world would exclude the portion of humanity that doesn’t own computers. Sure, they can go to the library, but I think the concept smacks of elitism.

People could, if they wanted, in various regions, start groups that refurbished and donated computers–which is what it seems like laurence is suggesting. That would be a great way to get them to people who can’t afford them–because stuff like TV’s cellphones, etc. are, if we look at the prices, alot cheaper than even the cheapest computer. It would also cut down on stuff going to the landfill.

Miss Muffett– first, let me apologize for the backwater comment you mentioned–and it was removed because it really wasn’t how I truly felt. Sitll, I used to work at The Mall for about 4 years, so I got a good taste of the local flava (and you should see my neigborhood). Perhaps we don’t know the same folks, but alot of the ones I know and met there (and live around here), didn’t have computers and really weren’t going to be able to afford them any time soon. Still there are lots of times when library computers aren’t all that convenient–even if they are top of the line. Imagine having to restrict your search time to 1/2 an hour because there are people standing around waiting for you to leave (that happened to me–so I know that scenario)

And so we have Craigslist out here–but I’m not sure how “honest” it’s keeping Masslive.com and how effective it is. (I wonder if Craig would send some stats for comparison). Many of the job categories are empty.

Still, if we telescope it out, it’s kind of funny that Jeff’s now helping Craig when he helped the parent company of Masslive.com (Conde Nast) a few years back. Kinda shows how fast things move out here.

We have a great way to pay for journalism… it’s called advertising.

The problem is that radio, TV, newspaper, and magazines are creating ads and helping local clients like it was still 1975. Business is starving for accountable, results-driven promotions and open to any media who will put their money where their mouth is. Yes that’s hard risky work but you’ve avoided it for decades and now look where you are.

BTW Casey could stand to exhibit a little modesty. He has (as Churchill said) a lot to be modest about.

I’m also an avid blog reader. I’m 31, and am versed in both print and digital mediums. Lucky me.

When a mag I write for recently went all digital, there was a huge uproar from readers and advertisers alike. some folks would rather flip through a mag in the shitter or on the subway than fire up an RSS feed on their portable.

Call me a romantic, but I like spreading the Sunday Times across the bed and looking at all the pretty ads.

Oh, and Gimmie Shelter!

As a New Orleans native and Katrina victim all I can say is thank God for Wal Mart, Craig’s list, Google, credit cards, and e-mail.

After sitting on my roof for 8 hours and getting totally drenched by the 14 feet of water under me it was remarkably edifying to get to a Wal Mart in Baton Rouge, take out my credit card (most places did not want the wet money in my wallet) and buy some dry clothes. I could even change in the men’s room. Seemed there were no local haberdasheries open after 10pm, and most of the locals were price gouging anyway. Wal Mart had sales on essentials, and had them in stock. Guess there’s always time for dumpster diving.

I used Craig’s list and Google to find apartments in BR, Lafayette, Seattle (for my son), St. Louis (another son), and Houston (yet another). Exactly how would the fabled print media have helped with that. By the time any print ad could be processed the places were gone.

My kids used university web sites to get registered in other schools. I guess we could have sent regular mail, but since I am just now getting my redirected mail that might have been difficult.

I’m 59 years old, and certainly no juvenile who has never read a paper, but I buy newspapers occasionally to protect the carpet of the car or to wipe the windshield. My wife likes the wedding announcements. Classified? You gotta be kidding.

I can find out what’s going on in St. Bernard (my ruined parish) almost immediately by logging to http://www.sbpg.net. I can read about it two days later in the BR Advocate (while spreading it out on the floor).

So wake up, pull the head out of that dark place, and join the 21st century. Just because other people are now making the money you used to make does not mean society is jeopardized. Believe me, someone will go to the freaking zoning meeting. To quote my youngest, “You guys are just so OVER.”

Thanks Wal Mart, and Craig, and Bill Gates, and AOL, and Steve jobs, and all of the other folks who were innovating for a better future while the old guard was sitting on their hands and collecting self generated awards for stories of the past. I cannot imagine what it would have been like without you. I would have had to read a newspaper; in a shelter.

I’ll take the net, Craigs list, and the blogs. You take FEMA, the local daily, and the hard wired phone. Best of luck. You may find yourself dumpster diving.

Well Tish, that was condescending. But I’m sure you were aiming for “enlightening” - right? Guess what? I live in the same backwater town you referenced with disdain. Small world. Heh. I have three kids in local schools. Most of the children in their classes have a computer at home. The parents can’t use the damn thing because their offspring are playing Runescape and IMing every blessed minute. We got phones and running water too. Perhaps you should hang with a younger crowd.

The new Chicopee Library also has a whole bunch of nice computers for us poor folk with dirt smudged across our noses.

I think it’s great we have Craigslist Western Mass. It sure won’t do anything to build our community but it will keep MassLive honest.

Question, do we still call it MSM if our new local “Citizen Journalism” effort (currently empty because it just started, or because no one is interested…too busy, etc.) http://local.masslive.com/northampton/ is owned by the Newhouses?

Cathy Resmer, thanks. All good.

As another staff writer at Seven Days — who has the OTHER blog — I’d like to throw in my two cents.

I absolutely love the radical, digital enthusiasts who are so quick to proclaim the death of print media. They sound like folks who weren’t fortunate (or talented) enough to get published in real-world ink.

Craigslist will undoubtedly cut into print advertising’s profitability. But paper will survive. Did eBay eradicate pawnshops?

I personally don’t give a rat’s ass if everything goes digital, or if we scrawl on papyrus with our own feces. As long as someone pays me to critique, analyze and report on the arts, than I’m perfectly happy. I freelance for several online-only publications, and I enjoy that just fine. If it all goes away, I’ll become an undertaker or something. Now THERE’S job security.

It would be a shame to completely turn the reporting reins over to “citizen journalists” and bloggers, however. First of all, there’s no way to vet them. Lord knows there’s enough “truthiness” in the world of conventional journalism as is.

Secondly, I doubt that many community issues will get the same attention as they do in print. Zoning puts me to sleep, but it IS important to know about. Would such a subject even be covered by Joe Digital with no established connections and who isn’t getting paid?

Lastly, a digital-only world would exclude the portion of humanity that doesn’t own computers. Sure, they can go to the library, but I think the concept smacks of elitism.

Oh, and I’m a fan of quality WRITING. We all know that online scribes compose their thoughts differently. They have to — who’s gonna read 10 pages of digital text? Not this fella.

I’m personally waiting for a cerebral cortex implant, so I can skip the paper vs. computron argument altogether.

Rock,

-casey

Sorry, but this is bunk. Look, I’m a paid reporter. Before I got my full-time job at Seven Days, I voluntarily wrote, edited and published (and distributed, and sold ads for) my small town newspaper. Everybody loved the paper. But nobody wanted to pay for it. So I gave it up. Because, let’s face it, I’m struggling just like everybody else and I didn’t want to spend 20 hours a week putting out a paper that was actually COSTING me money, not paying me.

Right. So then I turned the paper into a citizen journalism site. Guess how many people use it, despite all of my efforts to promote it? A handful at best, and most of them are either city employees or social service workers. Believe me, I’ve tried to get people to cover city council meetings. They don’t want to do it. They’re busy trying to make a living and spend time with their families, just like you and me. When I’ve been able to get volunteers, they sometimes (and I do mean sometimes) do good work, but they’re not always reliable, and they often burn out. Yes, there are some amazing volunteers out there, but anyone who works with them will tell you that they are few and far between. If you have a reliable citizen journalist in your town — or more than one, even — you are very, very lucky.

You’d never know it from that website, but our city is actually in the midst of a major downtown redevelopment that will completely transform the city. It is essentially being overseen by a small cabal of public officials. We desperately need watchdogs. Well, since I can’t find anybody to pay me to spend my time and energy being the official watchdog, I just have to do my best and cover what I can for the alt. weekly. Which, thankfully, does pay me.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t open up the process to citizen journalists. I think that media organizations should be doing more to give citizens who want to contribute to the public conversation a chance to do that. They’re doing some interesting work at the Greensboro News & Record in N.C. to make more room for citizen journalists, and I’ve been following them and other citizen journalist experiments closely.

But the bottom line is that we need people whose job it is to cover the news, to reflect our communities back to us, to serve as watchdogs. That’s a valuable public service, and it’s not something you can just trust to volunteers or amateurs. If the amateurs are any good, at some point, they’ll deserve to get paid for all of their work. Which essentially makes them the same as me.

We need to find a way to pay for journalism. Period. I say this as someone who did not study journalism in school, but stumbled into the profession after figuring out that it was a way I could both be creative and work for the public good. So why not try helping us instead of trying to hold us under? Because once we’re gone, you’re on your own. That sounds exciting now, but it will be harder than you think.

If you’re still convinced that citizen media has all the answers, and newspapers are worthless, read Dan Gillmor’s letter to his Bayosphere community.

If we’re behind Craig Newmark technologically, it’s because we’ve been busting our asses for ten years trying to put out an excellent newspaper that serves, and reflects, this community. That’s not “innovation?”

        No, Ms. Routly, that is NOT innovation.  That’s what every local newspaper worth the name has been trying to do for the last two centuries.

        Ms. Routly, you’re in denial.  Innovation would be your own site would having copies of every classified in your paper. Innovation would be electronic-only ads, for those who can’t afford print. Innovation would be calling up Craig Newmark, and making a deal to partner with him.  All the classifieds on your print edition would be on Craigslist, and you and Craigslis would link to each other.  You’re not innovating, you’re whistling past the graveyard.  And this time, the monster is there, and is going to eat you if you don’t act soon.

The House of Saud Must Be Destroyed!

You’ve missed or deliberately underemphasized a fundamental point of basic economics. The money does not “all go out of town”. What money are you talking about? Most of Craigslist is free. The money NOT SPENT on paid advertising to local corporate entities DOES stay “in town”. It STAYS IN THE POCKETS of the people using Craigslist, instead of, say the Washington Post here in DC which used to have a monopoly on paid advertising (how about $75 bucks for an ad for an apartment to rent !). The $75 I save stays here in my pocket, and I spend it right here in DC on local food, clothes, entertainment, my car repairs and so on. What’s hard to understand about that?

Your casual dismissal of consumers finding “some bargains” is factually wrong and reactionary. Consumers find A LOT of bargains on Craigslist and so they get to keep more of their own money that they have earned. People who want to take more of my money always invoke “community” to try to overcharge me. You think the stockholders of the Washington Post Corporation here in DC constitute a more worthy “community” than the real community of local people like me using CraigslistDC? Sorry, I’m not paying more money for an ad or for some information I want, just because somebody (like you) tells me I should support someone ELSE’S obsolete business model. The information posted on Craigslist is freely given and freely used by Craigslist consumers. Why should I pay through the nose in fealty to an obsolete business model ? The computer has freed everybody to do just this, and the old elites hate its’ effects.

It’s not too different from EBay in that sense. I still remember the first $100 I saved buying an airline ticket on EBay. I had broken the overpricing power of the airlines to overcharge me. I felt great. I kept more of my money in my own pocket. That’s why Wal Mart works so well too. Consumers save an incredible amount of money. Have you personally ever been to a WalMart? Or do you just uncritically repeat the current urban line about what WalMart is supposedly doing to “the community”. Do you still or have you ever thought of yourself as a reporter? Why don’t you do some first hand, original, eyes-open reporting and actually GO to a WalMart before you use it as a metaphor in your next column? Ask the people there what THEY think about Wal Mart.

And why should reporters be “hired” to serve as community watchdogs? What’s wrong with citizen bloggers and others in the local community of free people, not hired hands, doing their own reporting on what’s going on in their own community? We’re a free people. We can watchdog our own community.

His article reads like a holier-than-thou pissing match. As I remember my history, the first newspapers weren’t founded as communitarian ventures, and the few that were soon evolved into money-making businesses or died. They faced the same problems faced by craigslist or community bloggers — How do I gain enough money to live while continuing to do this?

The closest thing to non-profit newspapers were ideological newspapers supported by true believers and with relatively low-paid staff. Sounds like some alt papers today. Most of them didn’t last all that long.

Look, the wherewithal to keep body and soul together while doing whatever it is you do is always the problem. If you’re living off a resource, whether it is advertisers or true believers or a wealthy aunt, odds are someone else would like to live off that resource, too. As long as the particular competition is legal, I guess if you want to continue to exploit the resource maybe you just gotta talk them down.

I don’t feel sorry for newspapers of any stripe who refuse to see the handwriting on the wall. The ones that figure it out will survive (perhaps with reduced profit margins) and the ones who don’t want. Unless you want to take the resource by force or the threat thereof, learn to compete.

As for who will do whatever ’services for the good of the community’ that newspapers now *claim* to do (I’ve read more than a few that print ‘all the news that fits’ their particular bias), well if it’s not important enough for someone to do it for free because they want to or for someone to make a profit doing it, why should I believe it needs being done?

Lord, spare me from Lady Bountiful who wants to use MY money to do her good deeds.