Comments on: Jailed for speech: The precedent that sets http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/ by Jeff Jarvis Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:53:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Defending speech against the chill http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-31136 BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Defending speech against the chill Thu, 02 Mar 2006 17:41:55 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-31136 [...] In a few posts lately, I have connected the apparently unconnected incidents of the riots and deaths over the alleged offense of the Mohamed cartoons, the David Irving imprisonment over Holocaust denial, and the suspension of Mayor Ken Livingstone in London over an offensive insult. In today’s Guardian, Timothy Garton Ash writes an eloquent column that also ties together these threats to chill speech under what he calls the “creeping tyranny of the group veto.” And he adds one more case, a story that has been getting much attention here in the U.K.: The bravery of a teenager to stand up against animal-rights fanatics and to stand for research and science, which has led to counterdemonstrations in favor of reason. Ash writes after watching this counterprotest in favor of an animal-research lab at Oxford: …I was proud of the demonstrators who were reminding my university what, at best, it is still about: the pursuit of truth and the defence of reason. Protests against student loans or higher rents - these we expect. But here were students turning out on a chilly Saturday morning to stand up for science. [...] [...] In a few posts lately, I have connected the apparently unconnected incidents of the riots and deaths over the alleged offense of the Mohamed cartoons, the David Irving imprisonment over Holocaust denial, and the suspension of Mayor Ken Livingstone in London over an offensive insult. In today’s Guardian, Timothy Garton Ash writes an eloquent column that also ties together these threats to chill speech under what he calls the “creeping tyranny of the group veto.” And he adds one more case, a story that has been getting much attention here in the U.K.: The bravery of a teenager to stand up against animal-rights fanatics and to stand for research and science, which has led to counterdemonstrations in favor of reason. Ash writes after watching this counterprotest in favor of an animal-research lab at Oxford: …I was proud of the demonstrators who were reminding my university what, at best, it is still about: the pursuit of truth and the defence of reason. Protests against student loans or higher rents - these we expect. But here were students turning out on a chilly Saturday morning to stand up for science. [...]

]]> By: Jersey Exile http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30506 Jersey Exile Sun, 26 Feb 2006 02:56:21 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30506 David Irving: "The Holocaust never happened." Austria: "You're going to jail." David Irving: "Oh, wait. Maybe it *did* happen..." I'm a free speech absolutist myself, Jeff, but sometimes you simply can't argue with results. p.s. It's 'asinine', btw. David Irving: “The Holocaust never happened.”

Austria: “You’re going to jail.”

David Irving: “Oh, wait. Maybe it *did* happen…”

I’m a free speech absolutist myself, Jeff, but sometimes you simply can’t argue with results.

p.s. It’s ‘asinine’, btw.

]]> By: BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Chilling http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30425 BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Chilling Sat, 25 Feb 2006 04:50:07 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30425 [...] : And tonight on Bill Maher’s show, Farhad Manjoo ties the discussion of Holocaust denier David Irving to this: Another man said more stupid things and is jailed. [...] [...] : And tonight on Bill Maher’s show, Farhad Manjoo ties the discussion of Holocaust denier David Irving to this: Another man said more stupid things and is jailed. [...]

]]> By: CaNN :: We started it. http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30421 CaNN :: We started it. Sat, 25 Feb 2006 03:18:53 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30421 [...] THE COWARDLY NAZI– David Irving has plead guilty to charges of Holocuast denial in an Austrian criminal court. Jailed for speech: The precedent that sets …. (damianpenny, buzzmachine) [...] [...] THE COWARDLY NAZI– David Irving has plead guilty to charges of Holocuast denial in an Austrian criminal court. Jailed for speech: The precedent that sets …. (damianpenny, buzzmachine) [...]

]]> By: Brandon http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30216 Brandon Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:44:09 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30216 Quite right, but we we need to clean our own house too - http://theflyoverzone.blogspot.com/2006/02/supporting-nazi-lover.html Quite right, but we we need to clean our own house too -

http://theflyoverzone.blogspot.com/2006/02/supporting-nazi-lover.html

]]> By: Tom http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30201 Tom Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:20:19 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30201 "The cold of the chill is more dangerous than the heat of the hate." Carve that in stone somewhere! “The cold of the chill is more dangerous than the heat of the hate.”

Carve that in stone somewhere!

]]> By: PBCliberal http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30198 PBCliberal Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:54:43 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30198 The last time around, the Nazis made good use of government repression saying the idea must be good because the corrupt government was trying to supress it. We seem hell bent for leather to repeat history. The last time around, the Nazis made good use of government repression saying the idea must be good because the corrupt government was trying to supress it.

We seem hell bent for leather to repeat history.

]]> By: Wise One http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30193 Wise One Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:20:52 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30193 Not exempt from criticism. Just mocking. Discussion and debate is not ridicule. Not exempt from criticism. Just mocking. Discussion and debate is not ridicule.

]]> By: Menlo Bob http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30186 Menlo Bob Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:55:52 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30186 How is this any different than censorship in China? Let's hear it for cutting off their Yahoo and Google. How is this any different than censorship in China? Let’s hear it for cutting off their Yahoo and Google.

]]> By: Ruth http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30174 Ruth Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:40:01 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30174 When dissent is called treachery, then punishing free speech will be totalitarian. While I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it. Wise One seems to have been making the point Jeff made by showing the absurdity of the opposite point of view. At least, I hope so. When dissent is called treachery, then punishing free speech will be totalitarian. While I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Wise One seems to have been making the point Jeff made by showing the absurdity of the opposite point of view. At least, I hope so.

]]> By: NatC http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30163 NatC Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:01:37 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30163 Oh, free speech is the best way to protect us, and to let the truth be known? Sure. I'll leave it to you to deal with scientology's damages then. That's really one of the most critical differences between Europe and the US. Here in Europe it is generally considered that not anyone is in a position to protect himself/herself from such abuses, so we have laws to forbid such actions. We cannot consider being happy with free speech if that means that way too many people are abused by malevolent others. We often say in France that "my liberty ends where that of others starts". That means that you are not allowed to impair on someone else's liberty, would it simply be by disseminating false information. Oh, free speech is the best way to protect us, and to let the truth be known?
Sure. I’ll leave it to you to deal with scientology’s damages then.

That’s really one of the most critical differences between Europe and the US. Here in Europe it is generally considered that not anyone is in a position to protect himself/herself from such abuses, so we have laws to forbid such actions. We cannot consider being happy with free speech if that means that way too many people are abused by malevolent others.
We often say in France that “my liberty ends where that of others starts”. That means that you are not allowed to impair on someone else’s liberty, would it simply be by disseminating false information.

]]> By: Easycure http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30088 Easycure Wed, 22 Feb 2006 01:05:04 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30088 The cold of the chill is more dangerous than the heat of the hate. A very nice line there. Normally I'd get snarky and ask you if that came from your TV Guide days, but it's too good of a line. And you're right too. The hate was bad, but because the hate was the only thing tolerated, it didn't matter what you really thought. That's not good whether it's Nazi, Muslim, Christian, Scientologist or Buddhist. Not only that but the opposite is the only thing that works, free speech. It's the First Amendment for a reason. Those wacky forefathers knew it then, we should heed them now. The cold of the chill is more dangerous than the heat of the hate.

A very nice line there. Normally I’d get snarky and ask you if that came from your TV Guide days, but it’s too good of a line.

And you’re right too. The hate was bad, but because the hate was the only thing tolerated, it didn’t matter what you really thought. That’s not good whether it’s Nazi, Muslim, Christian, Scientologist or Buddhist. Not only that but the opposite is the only thing that works, free speech.

It’s the First Amendment for a reason. Those wacky forefathers knew it then, we should heed them now.

]]> By: Tom Evslin http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30073 Tom Evslin Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:43:27 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30073 There is no state that can be trusted for long with the power to decide which speech is free. Banning an opinion can even act to give it a credibility it doesn't deserve. But there have been some thoughtful comments favoring the laws banning Nazi themes on my <a href="http://blog.tomevslin.com/2006/02/freedom_of_spee_1.html" rel="nofollow">post</a> on this subject. There is no state that can be trusted for long with the power to decide which speech is free. Banning an opinion can even act to give it a credibility it doesn’t deserve.

But there have been some thoughtful comments favoring the laws banning Nazi themes on my post on this subject.

]]> By: stan devaughn http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30063 stan devaughn Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:49:46 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30063 It would be great if we could just ignore a self-absorbed jackass like Irving and the nut cases who run Iran, and the zombies who're trying to shove Islam down the world's throat when they're not trying to slit it, and all the other plagues of modern society. But we can't because the Holocaust is used by all of the above to purposely drive a political agenda and manipulate mobs. Nothing else compares to it. There's a good reason why denial of this event is a crime in some quarters. It's as good a way as any to maintain peoples' attention. It would be great if we could just ignore a self-absorbed jackass like Irving and the nut cases who run Iran, and the zombies who’re trying to shove Islam down the world’s throat when they’re not trying to slit it, and all the other plagues of modern society. But we can’t because the Holocaust is used by all of the above to purposely drive a political agenda and manipulate mobs. Nothing else compares to it. There’s a good reason why denial of this event is a crime in some quarters. It’s as good a way as any to maintain peoples’ attention.

]]> By: Richard http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30059 Richard Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:31:28 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30059 Wise One- That's ridiculous. I'll mock whoever I want. You're free to disagree with my mocking, but the idea that certain groups should be exempt from criticism is wrong. Personally, I don't believe in Christ, Mohamad, Vishnu, Allah, UFOs or astrology. Why should I keep my mouth shut, or be particularly sensetive about those subjects when I don't see anything special about them? As far as I'm concerned, religion is a belief system people choose to follow and it's not any more or less valid than choosing to follow a political philosophy. Ideas are always free game for criticism, just because you claim "god" inspires your ideas doesn't make them special. I think religious people should get a boot in the posterior- they've caused more than enough trouble. Free speech rules! Wise One-

That’s ridiculous. I’ll mock whoever I want. You’re free to disagree with my mocking, but the idea that certain groups should be exempt from criticism is wrong. Personally, I don’t believe in Christ, Mohamad, Vishnu, Allah, UFOs or astrology. Why should I keep my mouth shut, or be particularly sensetive about those subjects when I don’t see anything special about them? As far as I’m concerned, religion is a belief system people choose to follow and it’s not any more or less valid than choosing to follow a political philosophy. Ideas are always free game for criticism, just because you claim “god” inspires your ideas doesn’t make them special. I think religious people should get a boot in the posterior- they’ve caused more than enough trouble. Free speech rules!

]]> By: Wise One http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30047 Wise One Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:17:53 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30047 Three cheers for Austria and the Moslems. FOS is an issue for idiots. People who mock Christ, the Saints, or holy men of other faiths like Mohammed should get a swift boot in the posterior. Holocaust deniers are just Jew haters. Boot them too. Three cheers for Austria and the Moslems. FOS is an issue for idiots.

People who mock Christ, the Saints, or holy men of other faiths like Mohammed should get a swift boot in the posterior.

Holocaust deniers are just Jew haters. Boot them too.

]]> By: Markus Pirchner http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30040 Markus Pirchner Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:45:00 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30040 Austrian criminal prosecutors and courts are acting according to the law (denying the holocaust and any attempt to reconstitute nazi organizations and/or a nazi regime are criminal offenses and have been for decades). You can argue the laws but you cannot argue the prosecutors and courts because they act according to the laws. Apparantly there is no law in Austria against saying "fuck" on TV. ;-) Austrian criminal prosecutors and courts are acting according to the law (denying the holocaust and any attempt to reconstitute nazi organizations and/or a nazi regime are criminal offenses and have been for decades).
You can argue the laws but you cannot argue the prosecutors and courts because they act according to the laws.
Apparantly there is no law in Austria against saying “fuck” on TV. ;-)

]]> By: Robert Feinman http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30033 Robert Feinman Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:19:13 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30033 Before the Nazis had enough political power to change the terms of public discourse they used physical intimidation. The same thing is going on today in Iran and Afghanistan. Religious groups attack those who don't conform to their policies. The rule of law only works when the law is enforced. Historically even the US has not always been too vigilant about allowing for public dissent. During the heyday of the Wobblies, for example, the local police looked the other way when Pinkerton agents attacked those at the rallies. A similar thing happened at the last the RNC convention in NYC. The police rounded up lots of protesters on phoney charges at the behest of the committee and its local enforcers - Pataki and Bloomberg. Germany and Austria face the delicate problem of an existing neo-Nazi and skinhead movement which they are trying to control by restricting their ability to publicize their cause. Their experiences with the Nazis may be making this an over reaction, but their techniques are understandable, even if not ideal, given their history. Suggest some other approach which allows "free speech" but restricts "hate speech", it's not easy... Before the Nazis had enough political power to change the terms of public discourse they used physical intimidation.
The same thing is going on today in Iran and Afghanistan. Religious groups attack those who don’t conform to their policies.

The rule of law only works when the law is enforced. Historically even the US has not always been too vigilant about allowing for public dissent. During the heyday of the Wobblies, for example, the local police looked the other way when Pinkerton agents attacked those at the rallies.

A similar thing happened at the last the RNC convention in NYC. The police rounded up lots of protesters on phoney charges at the behest of the committee and its local enforcers - Pataki and Bloomberg.

Germany and Austria face the delicate problem of an existing neo-Nazi and skinhead movement which they are trying to control by restricting their ability to publicize their cause. Their experiences with the Nazis may be making this an over reaction, but their techniques are understandable, even if not ideal, given their history.

Suggest some other approach which allows “free speech” but restricts “hate speech”, it’s not easy…

]]> By: ashok http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30031 ashok Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:14:57 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30031 <i>I’d argue that the problem in Nazi Germany was not so much that the haters could speak but that they could ban their opponents from speaking. The cold of the chill is more dangerous than the heat of the hate.</i> I don't agree, but it's a good thought, and it could be exactly correct. I do think a gov't has to say some opinions are a violence against the regime that cannot be tolerated. The Nazi past of that area of the world always means that the current gov't can be threatened directly with a romantic antiquarianism that might overthrow it. You have sort of argued against this point, but I don't think you can knock it down fully, just as I can't say you're entirely wrong. Letting people be free works wonders. I’d argue that the problem in Nazi Germany was not so much that the haters could speak but that they could ban their opponents from speaking. The cold of the chill is more dangerous than the heat of the hate.

I don’t agree, but it’s a good thought, and it could be exactly correct. I do think a gov’t has to say some opinions are a violence against the regime that cannot be tolerated. The Nazi past of that area of the world always means that the current gov’t can be threatened directly with a romantic antiquarianism that might overthrow it. You have sort of argued against this point, but I don’t think you can knock it down fully, just as I can’t say you’re entirely wrong. Letting people be free works wonders.

]]> By: Patricia http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30025 Patricia Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:52:19 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30025 Agreed, one hundred percent. Make him a public ass rather than a martyr. Agreed, one hundred percent. Make him a public ass rather than a martyr.

]]> By: La Shawn Barber’s Corner » Law Against Holocaust Denial? http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30023 La Shawn Barber’s Corner » Law Against Holocaust Denial? Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:43:13 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/02/21/jailed-for-speech-the-precedent-that-sets/#comment-30023 [...] Another Update: Jeff Jarvis says: I am troubled at government regulation of speech for the chill it creates…. [...] [...] Another Update: Jeff Jarvis says: I am troubled at government regulation of speech for the chill it creates…. [...]

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