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	<title>Comments on: News by any other name</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/</link>
	<description>by Jeff Jarvis</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bobbie Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37619</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobbie Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37619</guid>
		<description>Just popped into this thread and was mildly amused by the attack dogs. 

I often try to understand the cap-doffing deference shown by Americans (and admittedly a lot of journalists around the world) to the New York Times. While I don't find it completely bizarre that people have such deference for a media source - a lot of people in the UK have a similar attachment to the BBC - I do find it illogical that people can't comprehend why criticism might be a worthwhile process. Apparently, in order to display an opinion you have to be motivated by an ulterior motive (usually greed or jealousy).

I'd put it to the "hey Jeff, get off the Times' back" crowd that JJ actually wants the NYT to be *better* (as do most of its genuine critics, I think). It's a bastion of journalism that too often relies on self-satisfaction to plump up its own position - this column seems a prime candidate - and while its not alone in succumbing to hubris, it does hold a special position that needs to be backed up with action and not just fine words.

If such examination begins by wondering whether they should have less achingly tedious columns from the ombudsmen, then I'm all for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just popped into this thread and was mildly amused by the attack dogs. </p>
<p>I often try to understand the cap-doffing deference shown by Americans (and admittedly a lot of journalists around the world) to the New York Times. While I don&#8217;t find it completely bizarre that people have such deference for a media source - a lot of people in the UK have a similar attachment to the BBC - I do find it illogical that people can&#8217;t comprehend why criticism might be a worthwhile process. Apparently, in order to display an opinion you have to be motivated by an ulterior motive (usually greed or jealousy).</p>
<p>I&#8217;d put it to the &#8220;hey Jeff, get off the Times&#8217; back&#8221; crowd that JJ actually wants the NYT to be *better* (as do most of its genuine critics, I think). It&#8217;s a bastion of journalism that too often relies on self-satisfaction to plump up its own position - this column seems a prime candidate - and while its not alone in succumbing to hubris, it does hold a special position that needs to be backed up with action and not just fine words.</p>
<p>If such examination begins by wondering whether they should have less achingly tedious columns from the ombudsmen, then I&#8217;m all for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Toblerone</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37240</link>
		<dc:creator>Toblerone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37240</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we can convince the Times' publishers that blogs are part of their future, by asking those under 20 how they get their news.  This may be difficult, as a large portion of this demographic actually doesnt care about the traditional news (witness the amount of drug and home health care commericals on the TV evening news).  We can get our news through an Ipod, cell phone, pager, a blackberry, or some other electronic device.  This news is up-to-the-second, accurate information.  The sports scores are in real time.  So is the stock ticker.  So are the blogs.

The issue is one of credibility.  Traditional outlets have already lost it among the young, because they know who owns the media.  Real news happens and is reported on by unauthorized outlets which do not filter their viewpoints for mass consumption.  This does mean that each blog will have some bias, some errors, and a distinct viewpoint.  But since there will be so many more outlets to choose from, there is a much more personal experience of the news.

Now, which Iraq blog should I read today.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we can convince the Times&#8217; publishers that blogs are part of their future, by asking those under 20 how they get their news.  This may be difficult, as a large portion of this demographic actually doesnt care about the traditional news (witness the amount of drug and home health care commericals on the TV evening news).  We can get our news through an Ipod, cell phone, pager, a blackberry, or some other electronic device.  This news is up-to-the-second, accurate information.  The sports scores are in real time.  So is the stock ticker.  So are the blogs.</p>
<p>The issue is one of credibility.  Traditional outlets have already lost it among the young, because they know who owns the media.  Real news happens and is reported on by unauthorized outlets which do not filter their viewpoints for mass consumption.  This does mean that each blog will have some bias, some errors, and a distinct viewpoint.  But since there will be so many more outlets to choose from, there is a much more personal experience of the news.</p>
<p>Now, which Iraq blog should I read today&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: John Ettorre</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37216</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ettorre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37216</guid>
		<description>Calame learned his trade at the Wall Street Journal, and he now writes in and keeps watch over the NYTimes, a couple of institutions that have built their unique credibility and trustworthiness over a combine quarter-millenium. You, on the other hand, have built your mediocre reputation, such as it is, at such foul rags as TV Guide, People, and Entertainment Weekly. So you really ought to explain to your readers sometime why you think anyone should listen to you when you lecture people who have spent their lifetimes doing serious work. Please reserve your suggestions for those downmarket from you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calame learned his trade at the Wall Street Journal, and he now writes in and keeps watch over the NYTimes, a couple of institutions that have built their unique credibility and trustworthiness over a combine quarter-millenium. You, on the other hand, have built your mediocre reputation, such as it is, at such foul rags as TV Guide, People, and Entertainment Weekly. So you really ought to explain to your readers sometime why you think anyone should listen to you when you lecture people who have spent their lifetimes doing serious work. Please reserve your suggestions for those downmarket from you.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37154</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37154</guid>
		<description>AK, that's funny.  You do realize your string of unfounded arguments do not present one fact, just opinions which seem to be the basis of your beliefs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AK, that&#8217;s funny.  You do realize your string of unfounded arguments do not present one fact, just opinions which seem to be the basis of your beliefs?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Kellogg</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37123</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Kellogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37123</guid>
		<description>Ruth,

So? Being wrong about one thing does not make you wrong about every thing else. No one can be consistently wrong, sooner or later you are going to get something right. Focusing on WMDs was the wrong way to go about it, when Saddam's possession or non-possession of such had nothing to do with the case. Saddam was in continued, persistent, and blatant violation of the cease fire agreement. He needed overthrowing, and we were in place to do it.

And really, the yellow cake crap is only a convenient excuse for the anti-Bush crowd. If we weren't in Iraq the same people who bitch about our presence there now would be bitching about our absence, and blaming it on Bush. 

It's about the President. It's always been about the President, it will always be about the President from now until it becomes a subject to bore school kids with. Had Gore not thrown away the election we'd still be in Iraq at this time, and I submit that certain people would be as ardently for the war as they are ardently against it now.

The left has forgotten its way, and they hate being reminded of this fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ruth,</p>
<p>So? Being wrong about one thing does not make you wrong about every thing else. No one can be consistently wrong, sooner or later you are going to get something right. Focusing on WMDs was the wrong way to go about it, when Saddam&#8217;s possession or non-possession of such had nothing to do with the case. Saddam was in continued, persistent, and blatant violation of the cease fire agreement. He needed overthrowing, and we were in place to do it.</p>
<p>And really, the yellow cake crap is only a convenient excuse for the anti-Bush crowd. If we weren&#8217;t in Iraq the same people who bitch about our presence there now would be bitching about our absence, and blaming it on Bush. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s about the President. It&#8217;s always been about the President, it will always be about the President from now until it becomes a subject to bore school kids with. Had Gore not thrown away the election we&#8217;d still be in Iraq at this time, and I submit that certain people would be as ardently for the war as they are ardently against it now.</p>
<p>The left has forgotten its way, and they hate being reminded of this fact.</p>
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		<title>By: ruth</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37088</link>
		<dc:creator>ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37088</guid>
		<description>DE, you may not have listened to the State of the union speech in which w used the example of Saddam's agents trying to purchase from Nigeria the elements for nuclear weapons, but I think it's well enough established that he did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DE, you may not have listened to the State of the union speech in which w used the example of Saddam&#8217;s agents trying to purchase from Nigeria the elements for nuclear weapons, but I think it&#8217;s well enough established that he did.</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Eagleson</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37086</link>
		<dc:creator>Dick Eagleson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-37086</guid>
		<description>Calame, whatever his title, still works for a balloon factory and can't hide the fact that he's a die-hard balloonist at heart.  When one of those spindly-looking heavier-than-air thingies goes put-putting by, he simply can't disguise his visceral unease.  He doesn't really, down deep in his bones, think anything can actually fly if it doesn't have a gasbag at the top.

Oh, and Ruth?  While defending the Times ain't exactly my thing either, maybe they gave Dubya a "pass" because he never actually - you know - &lt;i&gt;said&lt;/i&gt; any of that stuff.  Ya think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calame, whatever his title, still works for a balloon factory and can&#8217;t hide the fact that he&#8217;s a die-hard balloonist at heart.  When one of those spindly-looking heavier-than-air thingies goes put-putting by, he simply can&#8217;t disguise his visceral unease.  He doesn&#8217;t really, down deep in his bones, think anything can actually fly if it doesn&#8217;t have a gasbag at the top.</p>
<p>Oh, and Ruth?  While defending the Times ain&#8217;t exactly my thing either, maybe they gave Dubya a &#8220;pass&#8221; because he never actually - you know - <i>said</i> any of that stuff.  Ya think?</p>
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		<title>By: Mad Pigeon</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36964</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad Pigeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 01:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36964</guid>
		<description>Concur.   Back before the blogosphere it was easy to assume a given news outlet or journalist had credibility merely because sources were limited.  But now I can find blogs full of fresh and insightful content, and usually determine the author's credibility from their posted bio.  So who do I trust now--the print or TV news celebrity with zero credentials besides a strong chin and good teeth, or the blogger with a strong resume?  I'll go with the resume.

Do I smell only contempt from the establishment in the air, then, or is that the scent of their fear?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concur.   Back before the blogosphere it was easy to assume a given news outlet or journalist had credibility merely because sources were limited.  But now I can find blogs full of fresh and insightful content, and usually determine the author&#8217;s credibility from their posted bio.  So who do I trust now&#8211;the print or TV news celebrity with zero credentials besides a strong chin and good teeth, or the blogger with a strong resume?  I&#8217;ll go with the resume.</p>
<p>Do I smell only contempt from the establishment in the air, then, or is that the scent of their fear?</p>
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		<title>By: Ravo</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36933</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 00:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36933</guid>
		<description>The NYT has standards?

http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/04/us-new-york-times-credibility-sinks.html

From the above article: (April 3rd)

&lt;i&gt;"On the 18th of March, The Times was caught out with bogus story on Abu Ghraib.

Then on the 23rd of March, The Times was caught out with a bogus story on Katrina.

Next on the 29th of March, they were caught misleading their readers on the NSA wiretap program.

Now today we learn the Times has been caught out with a fake story from Iraq." &lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NYT has standards?</p>
<p><a href="http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/04/us-new-york-times-credibility-sinks.html" rel="nofollow">http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/04/us-new-york-times-credibility-sinks.html</a></p>
<p>From the above article: (April 3rd)</p>
<p><i>&#8220;On the 18th of March, The Times was caught out with bogus story on Abu Ghraib.</p>
<p>Then on the 23rd of March, The Times was caught out with a bogus story on Katrina.</p>
<p>Next on the 29th of March, they were caught misleading their readers on the NSA wiretap program.</p>
<p>Now today we learn the Times has been caught out with a fake story from Iraq.&#8221; </i></p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36909</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 23:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36909</guid>
		<description>"Come on, itâ€™s a blog"  He is way behind.  Blogs rule!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Come on, itâ€™s a blog&#8221;  He is way behind.  Blogs rule!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Jarvis</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36904</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Jarvis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 22:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36904</guid>
		<description>I reserve the right to find Calame boring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I reserve the right to find Calame boring.</p>
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		<title>By: miamidolphins</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36892</link>
		<dc:creator>miamidolphins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 22:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36892</guid>
		<description>Hey Mr. Jarvis 
Don't be whinning any more. I'm quite sick and tired of your dangling after the Times while you position yourself as Evangelion for the blogosphere. 
Your Times-bashing shows nothing more than your desire to make your personal biz lucrative whether it is described as pundit or consuting or whatever! 
Your business and their business are starkly different.  Please keep out of their business or admit what they are doing is more worthwhile than yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Mr. Jarvis<br />
Don&#8217;t be whinning any more. I&#8217;m quite sick and tired of your dangling after the Times while you position yourself as Evangelion for the blogosphere.<br />
Your Times-bashing shows nothing more than your desire to make your personal biz lucrative whether it is described as pundit or consuting or whatever!<br />
Your business and their business are starkly different.  Please keep out of their business or admit what they are doing is more worthwhile than yours.</p>
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		<title>By: ashok</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36874</link>
		<dc:creator>ashok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 21:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36874</guid>
		<description>Mr. Jarvis - well said, well said. A lot of your ideas are getting me thinking about another bastion of arrogance that isn't experiencing problems like the MSM, academia. There are some excellent academic blogs on the tech world and what it means like &lt;a href="http://www.tiara.org/blog" rel="nofollow"&gt;tiara.org&lt;/a&gt;, but at least in my experience, academics seem to be hostile to blogging, esp. as what goes on in blogging is probably far more productive (and less anchored to making money and getting prestige) than most journal articles (I need to prove that last assertion. I think working on ideas and being in discourse in real time, for much of academia, is key. This is not foolproof - more meditative study is required for other disciplines).

I dunno, though. Your thoughts in helping me make/unmake this argument would be most useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Jarvis - well said, well said. A lot of your ideas are getting me thinking about another bastion of arrogance that isn&#8217;t experiencing problems like the MSM, academia. There are some excellent academic blogs on the tech world and what it means like <a href="http://www.tiara.org/blog" rel="nofollow">tiara.org</a>, but at least in my experience, academics seem to be hostile to blogging, esp. as what goes on in blogging is probably far more productive (and less anchored to making money and getting prestige) than most journal articles (I need to prove that last assertion. I think working on ideas and being in discourse in real time, for much of academia, is key. This is not foolproof - more meditative study is required for other disciplines).</p>
<p>I dunno, though. Your thoughts in helping me make/unmake this argument would be most useful.</p>
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		<title>By: ruth</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36867</link>
		<dc:creator>ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 20:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/04/09/1362/#comment-36867</guid>
		<description>I like the comment that the info 'hasn't been verified or confirmed' - by Times staff.  The same Times staff that admitted it had let w get by with making unsubstantiated claims about such things as purchase of yellow cake from Nigeria by Saddam, which never happened, without seeking to  verify, confirm, or report that it was neither.   Any guesses why blogs which are subjected to intense scrutiny by bloggers constantly, get so much respect, and newspapers are losing that very commodity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the comment that the info &#8216;hasn&#8217;t been verified or confirmed&#8217; - by Times staff.  The same Times staff that admitted it had let w get by with making unsubstantiated claims about such things as purchase of yellow cake from Nigeria by Saddam, which never happened, without seeking to  verify, confirm, or report that it was neither.   Any guesses why blogs which are subjected to intense scrutiny by bloggers constantly, get so much respect, and newspapers are losing that very commodity.</p>
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