Comments on: Speaking to a convention of ostriches http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/ by Jeff Jarvis Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:18:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Whither news http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-160708 BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Whither news Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:04:41 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-160708 [...] And we continue the discussion about profit margins as an evil and shareholders as the handmaidens. Carroll says that Tribune Company should have reduced its margin from 20 to 10 percent and then he would have had another $75 million to spend on journalism and make the paper bigger. Or $75 million to waste. See Michael Kinsley on the 15 editorialists. This is a hymn Carroll has been singing for sometime. [...] [...] And we continue the discussion about profit margins as an evil and shareholders as the handmaidens. Carroll says that Tribune Company should have reduced its margin from 20 to 10 percent and then he would have had another $75 million to spend on journalism and make the paper bigger. Or $75 million to waste. See Michael Kinsley on the 15 editorialists. This is a hymn Carroll has been singing for sometime. [...]

]]> By: Anthony Moor http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-43352 Anthony Moor Tue, 02 May 2006 02:06:19 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-43352 I read John Carroll's speech, and while I feel he accurately described the conundrum in the newspaper boardrooms, he seemed to be so quaint in the way he equated paper and ink with journalism, as if it's the newsprint that makes the craft. How parochial! Can there be travel without trains? Photos without film? Mathematics without slide rules? Art without paint and brush? Of course. I read John Carroll’s speech, and while I feel he accurately described the conundrum in the newspaper boardrooms, he seemed to be so quaint in the way he equated paper and ink with journalism, as if it’s the newsprint that makes the craft. How parochial! Can there be travel without trains? Photos without film? Mathematics without slide rules? Art without paint and brush? Of course.

]]> By: Brian O'Connell http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42545 Brian O'Connell Sat, 29 Apr 2006 14:26:00 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42545 Biff's not Happy. Biff’s not Happy.

]]> By: biff http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42387 biff Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:05:43 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42387 geez, quit getting all hung up on whether carroll's a `snob' i'm so sick of whiners like you wanting evryone to pee into the same trough. that's why we elected the doofus in the white house, because hicks thought he'd be more fun to have a beer with than gore,even though he was en effete ivy league rich kid with an invented texan resume. quit worrying about snobbery, carroll's correct. bloggers have their place but they also don;t have a clue. NEWSFLASH: journalism SHOULD be snobbish if its to be good. now go back to your blog that no one reads and I only found becasue it was linked to LAOBSERVED, which people do read. geez, quit getting all hung up on whether carroll’s a `snob’ i’m so sick of whiners like you wanting evryone to pee into the same trough. that’s why we elected the doofus in the white house, because hicks thought he’d be more fun to have a beer with than gore,even though he was en effete ivy league rich kid with an invented texan resume. quit worrying about snobbery, carroll’s correct. bloggers have their place but they also don;t have a clue. NEWSFLASH: journalism SHOULD be snobbish if its to be good. now go back to your blog that no one reads and I only found becasue it was linked to LAOBSERVED, which people do read.

]]> By: Mike Myers http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42383 Mike Myers Sat, 29 Apr 2006 01:33:46 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42383 Carroll says ". . . to campaigns to save Christmas from imaginary enemies, to mass-produced political vituperation. . ." Well it's clear that Carroll knows better than his readers whether Christians and Christmas have enemies or not, and he'll make the decisions, thank you. And as for mass produced political vituperation---what do you think rolls across the presses of the Los Angeles Times on most mornings? The Los Angeles Times under Carroll and his predecessors long ago gave up "just the facts ma'am" style reporting. Bias shows in most stories most days. I have no problem with my local paper, whether it's the Times or something else, having strong opinions and a strong editorial bent. But there's a place for that--on the editorial pages. When you can't tell whether you're reading an editorial or an objective story, you finally decide not to bother sorting the objective truth kernel from the editorial chaff. Carroll and Co. are in the chaff business--and it's a dying business. Carroll says “. . . to campaigns to save Christmas from imaginary enemies, to mass-produced political vituperation. . .”

Well it’s clear that Carroll knows better than his readers whether Christians and Christmas have enemies or not, and he’ll make the decisions, thank you.

And as for mass produced political vituperation—what do you think rolls across the presses of the Los Angeles Times on most mornings? The Los Angeles Times under Carroll and his predecessors long ago gave up “just the facts ma’am” style reporting. Bias shows in most stories most days.

I have no problem with my local paper, whether it’s the Times or something else, having strong opinions and a strong editorial bent. But there’s a place for that–on the editorial pages. When you can’t tell whether you’re reading an editorial or an objective story, you finally decide not to bother sorting the objective truth kernel from the editorial chaff. Carroll and Co. are in the chaff business–and it’s a dying business.

]]> By: Jeff Jarvis http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42323 Jeff Jarvis Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:44:37 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42323 No, I don't favor tax-supported and government-certified journalism. I think it's terribly dangerous. No, I don’t favor tax-supported and government-certified journalism. I think it’s terribly dangerous.

]]> By: Jackie Danicki http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42317 Jackie Danicki Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:29:04 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42317 Jeff, another excellent post from you. I'm interested in how you can know all of this as if it were the alphabet and yet find nothing wrong with the BBC's model of holding the public at ransom in order to 'serve' us in the way they see fit. Are you okay with everyone in the country not being allowed to own a radio or television without ponying up to be 'served' by the BBC? I'm genuinely curious. Jeff, another excellent post from you.

I’m interested in how you can know all of this as if it were the alphabet and yet find nothing wrong with the BBC’s model of holding the public at ransom in order to ’serve’ us in the way they see fit. Are you okay with everyone in the country not being allowed to own a radio or television without ponying up to be ’served’ by the BBC? I’m genuinely curious.

]]> By: JennyD http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42269 JennyD Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:27:44 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42269 That's nice of John to worry. But it does nothing to solve his problem. His handwringing from the pulpit only makes him look weak and not sharp enough to find a solution. What he wants is to become a charity, or worse, some kind of state-supported outfit insulated from the market, from citizens. If the work of journalism is so important, then there is a way to make it work in the marketplace. Someone will figure out how to do it. I doubt that person will be John Carroll. That’s nice of John to worry. But it does nothing to solve his problem. His handwringing from the pulpit only makes him look weak and not sharp enough to find a solution. What he wants is to become a charity, or worse, some kind of state-supported outfit insulated from the market, from citizens.

If the work of journalism is so important, then there is a way to make it work in the marketplace. Someone will figure out how to do it. I doubt that person will be John Carroll.

]]> By: Matt Storin http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42267 Matt Storin Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:20:13 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42267 Jeff: You make valid points, as in the past, about the ills of the newspaper business, but I think you are missing points in the Carroll speech with which I think you would agree: 1. He is speaking on behalf of journalists with great skills, investigative in particular, whose livelihoods are threatened yet whose value to society is immeasurable. The old paradigm of media supported these people. It truly is not clear whether the new one will. These are the people who tell us if our government is listening to our phone calls. Yes, it is possible, though not well proved, that the blogosphere might ultimately produce that kind of information, but I don't think you can blame John for worrying about what happens to those folks. 2. Lots of journalism has not been popular. The reporting of the early sit-ins and Freedom Riders in the civil rights movement of the '50s and '60s was not popular, even among many northerners. The early reports of failure in Vietnam is another example. As a commercial philosophy, shoving news down the throats of the public may not be wise, but historically it has been important on occasion. MSM could do that, for better or worse. Citizen journalists, whatever their value, can't do some -- repeat some -- of this work. They also can't -- generally speaking -- survive in Baghdad. John Carroll is worrying about how this work is going to get done. I know you have had some thoughts about this, but it's not clear to me why you would rip the guy for having these concerns. Jeff: You make valid points, as in the past, about the ills of the newspaper business, but I think you are missing points in the Carroll speech with which I think you would agree:
1. He is speaking on behalf of journalists with great skills, investigative in particular, whose livelihoods are threatened yet whose value to society is immeasurable. The old paradigm of media supported these people. It truly is not clear whether the new one will. These are the people who tell us if our government is listening to our phone calls. Yes, it is possible, though not well proved, that the blogosphere might ultimately produce that kind of information, but I don’t think you can blame John for worrying about what happens to those folks.
2. Lots of journalism has not been popular. The reporting of the early sit-ins and Freedom Riders in the civil rights movement of the ’50s and ’60s was not popular, even among many northerners. The early reports of failure in Vietnam is another example. As a commercial philosophy, shoving news down the throats of the public may not be wise, but historically it has been important on occasion. MSM could do that, for better or worse. Citizen journalists, whatever their value, can’t do some — repeat some — of this work. They also can’t — generally speaking — survive in Baghdad.
John Carroll is worrying about how this work is going to get done.
I know you have had some thoughts about this, but it’s not clear to me why you would rip the guy for having these concerns.

]]> By: greeneyeshade http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42172 greeneyeshade Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:25:13 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42172 I've worked with John Carroll and liked him, but I reacted to this post the way I did to Joseph Epstein's description of newspapers' marketing strategies as 'whoring after the uninterested young:' Ohhh, does the truth hurt. I’ve worked with John Carroll and liked him, but I reacted to this post the way I did to Joseph Epstein’s description of newspapers’ marketing strategies as ‘whoring after the uninterested young:’ Ohhh, does the truth hurt.

]]> By: laurence haughton http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42019 laurence haughton Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:31:40 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42019 Sorry I meant Jeff Sorry I meant Jeff

]]> By: laurence haughton http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-42016 laurence haughton Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:16:10 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-42016 Great work cutting through the spin Jay. Now turn that same analysis to the business side, substitute clients for the public and you can see that newspapers don't appreciate or competently serve the people who provide them with over $40 billion dollars a year to spend on quality journalism. I'm sure they blame their advertisers for not appreciating "journalism" or "boldness" instead of addressing the decades of disappointment they've served up to business people across every sector. Great work cutting through the spin Jay.

Now turn that same analysis to the business side, substitute clients for the public and you can see that newspapers don’t appreciate or competently serve the people who provide them with over $40 billion dollars a year to spend on quality journalism.

I’m sure they blame their advertisers for not appreciating “journalism” or “boldness” instead of addressing the decades of disappointment they’ve served up to business people across every sector.

]]> By: Jason O http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-41993 Jason O Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:51:53 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-41993 "You can call yourself a public servant only if the public thinks you’re serving them." Amazing, you essentially just boiled down the entire problem of contemporary media into one sentence. Right now, my perception is the media is serving their own interests. That's why I trust them less and less. “You can call yourself a public servant only if the public thinks you’re serving them.”

Amazing, you essentially just boiled down the entire problem of contemporary media into one sentence.

Right now, my perception is the media is serving their own interests. That’s why I trust them less and less.

]]> By: CaptiousNut http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/04/27/speaking-to-a-convention-of-ostriches/#comment-41987 CaptiousNut Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:35:41 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/?p=1435#comment-41987 Newspaper people are quite frankly not qualified to self-prescribe solutions. Read this <a href="http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2005/07/17/pecking-order-at-the-new-york-times-places-shareholders-last/" rel="nofollow">link</a> to see how the NYT has insulated itself from shareholder accountability. I just don't see how Standard & Poors allowed such a company into the S&P 500 index. Newspaper people are quite frankly not qualified to self-prescribe solutions.

Read this link to see how the NYT has insulated itself from shareholder accountability.

I just don’t see how Standard & Poors allowed such a company into the S&P 500 index.

]]>