Always good to hear facts and reality wrec havoc with liberal apologist pablum. The underlying premises of “America is always wrong”, “They hate us because of what we’ve done”, and “I’m more afraid of my government than psychotic terrorists” that support these failed arguments make me sick.

Greg

I’m quite sure no matter what I might offer you’d find some way to continue pretending that it’s only ‘radical’ Muslims which believe in their duties to support jihad. There’s plenty of material out there which states otherwise. And what are they preaching in their mosques? There’s plenty of material out there about that, too. I also don’t have time to provide references regarding the depth and influence of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Middle East and beyond but I invite you to research it.

That clerical politician wasn’t directing his words today regarding ‘expectations’ to only the ‘radical Muslims’ of ‘all Muslim nations’.

I invite you to keep reading. By the way, I didn’t see who contributed to that wiki article, but remember the taqiyya factor.

I said I wasn’t going to do this, but here goes…

First though, thank you for your kind comments Lance.

Now the Muslim Brotherhood is a radical organization. And I’ve never said or felt that radical Islam is a teeny weeny problem.

From Wikipedia re Jihad:

Jihad
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jihad, sometimes spelled Jahad, Jehad, Jihaad or Djehad, (Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root ǧhd (”to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle”), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle to further the Islamic cause. Individuals involved in the political or military forms of jihad are often labeled with the neologism “jihadist”.

The term “jihad” is often rendered in western languages and non-Islamic cultures as “holy war”, but this “physical” struggle, which encompasses religion, only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty, or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad can be called a mujahid (in plural: mujahadin) (Arabic: striver, struggler), a term even more often applied to groups who practice armed struggle in the name of Islam. Such a person might engage in fighting as a military struggle for religious reasons, or for example, struggle to memorize the Qur’an. Despite this, jihad maintains a negative connotation and reputation in much of the West, on par with the reaction to the Christian term crusade in much of the Islamic world.

Classifications of Jihad by Muslims
Jihad has been classified either as al-jihād al-akbar (the greater jihad), the struggle against one’s soul (nafs), or al-jihād al-asgar (the lesser jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.

Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God) [1]:

Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), and political or military propaganda.
Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as military and medical sciences).
Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one’s wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).

It contains the following subsections:

Preface
***ALL MUSLIMS MUST MAKE JIHAD***
The Qur’an on Jihad
The Ahaadeeth on Jihad
The Scholars on Jihad
Why Do the Muslims Fight?
Mercy in the Islamic Jihad
Associated Matters Concerning Jihad
Epilogue

A taste:

“All Muslims Must Make Jihad

Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded. Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of the martyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have acted similarly and who have modelled themselves upon the martyrs in their performance of jihad can join them in this reward.”  

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/

And here’s an article regarding an on-line magazine devoted to jihad by another teeny, tiny fringe element: Muslim women.

Here’s a taste:

“The editorial in al-Khansa’s first issue says that “martyrdom for the sake of Allah” and gaining “the pleasure of Allah and His Paradise” should be the goal of women. It draws attention to the support that women extend to the jihadis. “We stand shoulder to shoulder with our men, supporting them, helping them, and backing them up. We educate their sons and we prepare ourselves. May Allah know of the honesty of our intentions and of our good deeds, and [may He] choose us and make us martyrs for His sake …”

The magazine sees no contradiction between being a woman/mother and being a jihadi at the same time. The editorial says: “We will stand covered by our veils and wrapped in our robes, weapons in hand, our children in our laps, with the Koran and the Sunna of the Prophet of Allah directing and guiding us. The blood of our husbands and the body parts of our children are the sacrifice by means of which we draw closer to Allah, so that through us, Allah will cause the martyrdom for His sake to succeed.” ”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FI15Ak02.html

I truly wish I was making this stuff up.

Please read, read and read some more. Know thy enemy.

“IRAN CLERIC CALLS ON MUSLIMS TO ARM HIZBOLLAH

Tue Aug 1, 2006 8:11am ET

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Muslim nations should arm Hizbollah in its fight against Israel, Iran’s influential hardline clerical politician Ahmad Jannati said on Tuesday.

Iran has repeatedly said it only provides moral support to Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas [ahahaha] and there was no immediate sign that Iran’s official policy [regarding lying] has changed.

Israel accuses Iran of providing Hizbollah with missiles used against civilian and military targets.

“WE ARE EXPECTING MUSLIM NATIONS TO PROVIDE VARIOUS KINDS OF SUPPORT, INCLUDING ARMS, MEDICINE AND FOOD TO HIZBOLLAH,” [emphasis added] he told the students news agency ISNA.

Jannati heads the Guardian Council, Iran’s constitutional watchdog composed of six clerics and six hardline lawyers.”

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-08-01T121056Z_01_L01894728_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-ARMS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

‘Moral Support’
Arms
Money
Medicine
Food
Shelter
Clothing
Propaganda
Taqiyya trash talk
Etc.

All good Muslims can find SOME way to support their brothers in jihad. After all, an “influential hardline clerical politician” told them to, reinforcing tenets of the Koran.

I know, it’s just a teeny, tiny, fringe element…

M

a graduate of UCD’; use of the terms ‘ulster’; ‘IRA terrorism’; name ‘Penny’

That profile says alot about where your coming from

Google your ass off. Whatever. It’s pointless.

That profile says alot about where your coming from!

I was spitting on the concept that Hezbollah drives their munitions into Christian - as opposed to Muslim - neighborhoods in order to try to destroy THEM with retaliatory fire, which is doubly diabolical…not at you. Is that more or less diabolical than using U.N installations to launch

When you directed spit at me I ignored it. You may not agree that all Muslims are required to support jihad in some fashion or another, but that’s what you’d learn if you spent any time becoming educated about Islam. Which is why Spencer stated, …” my point has been simple and consistent: that the jihad terrorists are working from mainstream traditions and numerous Qur’anic exhortations, and that by means of these traditions and teachings they are able to gain recruits among Muslims worldwide, and hold the sympathy of others whom they do not recruit. This explains why there has been no widespread, sustained, or sincere Muslim outcry against the jihad terrorist enterprise in general.”

I am not concerned that you don’t wish to take my word for it. I am, though, alarmed at the number of terrorist apologists who clearly are uneducated about our enemy to the extent they aren’t even aware our enemy IS ISLAM.

How many attacks will it take for you to understand that THEIR hatred of the infidels is what drives their barbarism and fuels their jihad? There’s plenty of information out there if you choose to become educated.

You seem like a bright guy and I hope you will.

I have to say that as someone who is more pro-Israeli than not, it alarms me how much of the hatred on this forum is coming from pro-Israeli people. Every person killed in Lebanaon is a terrorist from Hezbollah, every Muslim is either a jihadist terrorist or a moderate, but fundamentalist who supports the terrorists in some way or another.

Go find your little goat? What does that mean?

Disagree with some aspect of what Israel is doing? You’re automatically an anti-Semite.

In the end, I hope that hatred on this forum doesn’t end up driving our political process, because it doesn’t seem rational. Our enemy is not Islam. It is our mutual hatred.

No more time to play with you…

My ‘option’ is reform, obviously.

What exactly is reform? Reform of Islam? Reform of local governments? How do we go about doing this? Also how do we “educate” the people? Do we send in teams of teachers? What do they teach? Who pays for it?

What we can do is promote democracy in the region. This can be via a large number of “soft” initiatives, including trade policies, support of democratic institutions and key local leaders and putting restrictions on the current corrupt oligarchs. Do we have any interest in this? No. We are perfectly happy with Saudi Arabia or Kuwait as long as the oil flows.

Sorry, you are right, you are not a racist. Just a bigot.

Yes I’ve answered you on all counts. Please don’t try the tack about the Bible exhorting it’s followers to kill or dhimmify all the ‘unbelievers’. It isn’t reality.

My ‘option’ is reform, obviously. Do I think it’s likely? No. Realistically, we’ll have to continue to track down the terrorists wherever they hide. And I’m a proponent for education about our enemy: Islam.

Why don’t you do some reading, Robert? Need to get to work.

I should also point out that I could find you just as many quotes of a similar nature from the Bible. All relgions have extremist writings in their traditions, but as their host societies progress they tend to ignore the more radical portions and focus instead on those aspects which fit a stable, non-threatened environment.

You still haven’t done anything to document how these extremist views represent more than a lunatic fringe nor have you offered any semblance of a course of action. And yes, you still are racist and avoiding the issue. That is counter productive.

It is neither counterproductive nor ‘rascist’ to state facts about Islam and it’s
prescriptions requiring jihad against the infidels (unbelievers).

Here are but a few references:

” 8:74-75 Those who believe and migrated from their homes and {Jihad] fought for the Way of Allah, and those who have sheltered them and helped them they are truly the believers. Theirs shall be forgiveness and a generous provision. And those who believed afterwards and emigrated, and {Jihad] struggled with you — they are of you. And in the Book of Allah, the near kinsmen deserve one another (in inheritance). Allah has knowledge of all things.

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. ”

http://www.interesting-information.com/islam/jihad.htm

See:

164 Jihad Verses in the Koran - Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

From Spencer:

“Ever since I began doing this work publicly my point has been simple and consistent: that the jihad terrorists are working from mainstream traditions and numerous Qur’anic exhortations, and that by means of these traditions and teachings they are able to gain recruits among Muslims worldwide, and hold the sympathy of others whom they do not recruit. This explains why there has been no widespread, sustained, or sincere Muslim outcry against the jihad terrorist enterprise in general.

The mainstream media, both liberal and conservative, does not want to face these facts. They think that by speaking about the Islamic roots of jihad violence they will undercut moderate Muslims. But in fact, no reform in Islam can ever take place without an acknowledgment of what needs to be reformed. The near-universal refusal to provide that acknowledgment is just one reason why that reform is virtually certain not to be forthcoming.”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006829.php

“Moderate Muslims” are those who “have sheltered them and helped them (active jihadists)”, or, as noted by Spencer, hold sympathy for them. I stick by my characterization of all Muslims as being fundamentalists in this regard.

Spencer refers to reform in Islam as one of those ideas you haven’t thought of, Robert.
But as long as the infidels fail to become educated about Islam there will be no ‘acknowledgement’, and therefore no hope for reform of the Religion of Bombers and Beheaders.

How many acts of terrorist jihad will it take across the globe before the unbelievers wise up or take the time to get educated?

That profile says alot about where your coming from!

So, how many FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS are there, really?

1.5 billion.

Not only is this remark racist, but it is counter-productive. If one truly believes that all 1.5 billion Muslims are enemies than there is no course of action open to resolving the current tensions.

Let’s examine the alternatives:
1. Annihilate the entire world Muslim population. (how?)
2. Contain the entire Muslim population to specfic regions which we then fence off militarily. (Isn’t this called ethnic cleansing?)
3. Force them to become non-Muslim (and therefore rational). I suppose the preferred new religion being Christianity. (Which of the 2000 demoninations?)
4. Another idea I’ve haven’t thought of.

I think the citation illustrates exactly my point, the are a group of strident people who are trying to turn the actions of a small group of extremists into something representing a diverse world population. It’s called scapegoating, and is the primary tool of nationalistic despots. One would think after the experience with the Nazis and the number of other instances since then the logic of this type of demonization would not be capable of attracting supporters. But, apparently, it still has the old magic.

If this propaganda effort is successful in the US it will end up giving a free hand to the current administration which will lead to more foreign adventurism and less civil liberty at home.

IRA terrorism was confined to Ulster and the UK unlike the WOT. It was regional.

Being Irish gives you nothing when it comes to being correct on anything. And don’t presume anything about people.

How’s this sweetie, I’m a graduate of UCD. Touche.

You say ‘”a limited regional problem with its terrorists not welcome in the Republic. Britain would never have had a reason to “destroy” Dublin.”

What do you mean regional. Violence in Ni. Ireland, Ireland and the UK isnt regional. Anyway, Israel claims its attacks on Lebanon are NOT part of a regional operation (yeah!). BTW, Northern isnt = Ulster as you wrongly state. Three countries of Ulster are in the Republic. Anyway, as you say the UK has no ‘legitimate” reason to destroy Dublin, as Israel doesnt have to destroy Beirut.

You also forget that Hezbollah is Lebanese. They are Lebanese cotizens, bot Syrians.

You also incorrectly state that Hezbollah have been firing rockets into Isrrael for months. Wrong. State any citation where they fired rockets into ISrael over the last year BEFORE the crises began two weeks ago. They did not.

For someone so strident in their statements, you really are very uninformed about world affairs/facts.

M