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	<title>Comments on: He speaks: Lemann responds</title>
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	<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/</link>
	<description>by Jeff Jarvis</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Scott Suttell</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-112421</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Suttell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-112421</guid>
		<description>Mike,

I agree that blogs are a great place for people with expertise to write about the subjects that interest them. It's a major reason I read blogs, too.

But since the context of the discussion was how to improve the performance of MSM, I wanted to point out that as a practical matter, getting experts to write for newspapers, TV, web sites, etc., won't work very well.

As terrific as blogs are, we still need the traditional media to gather the facts about, say, a major corporate merger in the telecom field. (I work for a business newspaper, so the examples I pick tend to come from business.) It's not realistic to think that a telecom analyst for a major investment bank is going to write a news story about the transaction. That person might have a blog that offers insight on the deal, and that's tremendously valuable. But that person isn't writing the 1,200-word story with all the details about the transaction and comments from all the parties involved.

Experts don't fit into the economic model of the news business. (To say nothing of the conflicts they'd bring in writing about the fields they work in.) Penny's right that too much in the media is insipid and ill-informed. I just think the answer is to find more reporters and editors with a broad base of knowledge and the ability to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>I agree that blogs are a great place for people with expertise to write about the subjects that interest them. It&#8217;s a major reason I read blogs, too.</p>
<p>But since the context of the discussion was how to improve the performance of MSM, I wanted to point out that as a practical matter, getting experts to write for newspapers, TV, web sites, etc., won&#8217;t work very well.</p>
<p>As terrific as blogs are, we still need the traditional media to gather the facts about, say, a major corporate merger in the telecom field. (I work for a business newspaper, so the examples I pick tend to come from business.) It&#8217;s not realistic to think that a telecom analyst for a major investment bank is going to write a news story about the transaction. That person might have a blog that offers insight on the deal, and that&#8217;s tremendously valuable. But that person isn&#8217;t writing the 1,200-word story with all the details about the transaction and comments from all the parties involved.</p>
<p>Experts don&#8217;t fit into the economic model of the news business. (To say nothing of the conflicts they&#8217;d bring in writing about the fields they work in.) Penny&#8217;s right that too much in the media is insipid and ill-informed. I just think the answer is to find more reporters and editors with a broad base of knowledge and the ability to learn.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike G</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-112136</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-112136</guid>
		<description>Scott, you're assuming the answer is to force experts to work the way newspapers and journalists work now.  (Admittedly, my question did sort of push it that way.)

Yet lots of experts are already writing directly for the public on their blogs.  They just aren't writing for newspapers, where some editor will dumb it down and make them take out most of what motivated them to write in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, you&#8217;re assuming the answer is to force experts to work the way newspapers and journalists work now.  (Admittedly, my question did sort of push it that way.)</p>
<p>Yet lots of experts are already writing directly for the public on their blogs.  They just aren&#8217;t writing for newspapers, where some editor will dumb it down and make them take out most of what motivated them to write in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: penny</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111919</link>
		<dc:creator>penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111919</guid>
		<description>Chris, maybe the really smart thing, Pulitzer's vision, would be to restrict journalism to a post grad degree after you've have a degree in the liberal arts or science.

Isn't this the same form over substance problem playing itself out in our public schools? 

Scott - you point is well taken. But, honestly, the most incurious people dominate the insipid and overly stylized MSM now.  Just read the standard slop or watch the prevailing interviews on the news. It's pathetic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, maybe the really smart thing, Pulitzer&#8217;s vision, would be to restrict journalism to a post grad degree after you&#8217;ve have a degree in the liberal arts or science.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t this the same form over substance problem playing itself out in our public schools? </p>
<p>Scott - you point is well taken. But, honestly, the most incurious people dominate the insipid and overly stylized MSM now.  Just read the standard slop or watch the prevailing interviews on the news. It&#8217;s pathetic.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Suttell</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111725</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Suttell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111725</guid>
		<description>Re: Itâ€™s a desperate fool who thinks â€œwe need more physics in our science writingâ€“ letâ€™s teach physics to writersâ€ rather than â€œletâ€™s get some physics pros to write for us.â€

I'm not going to defend poor reporting, bias and the various other problems in journalism. But you're dreaming if you think getting "experts" to write stories is going to be the magic solution.

From a practical standpoint, most experts in key fields -- science, medicine, finance, law, etc. -- are well-paid, so few if any would ever leave their jobs to become reporters. Even on a free-lance basis, newspapers wouldn't come close to paying these people adequately for the time and effort that goes into substantial pieces.

And if these people still hold jobs in their fields while writing for the media, how effective can they be in covering news? (Op-ed pieces are something different.) If you're an investment banker, would you talk with a "reporter" for the local paper who's also an investment banker at one of your main competitors? I doubt it.

The best reporters are curious people who listen well, gather facts diligently, know enough about the subject to ask intelligent questions and aren't afraid to ask sources to repeat and explain information they don't understand. They correct mistakes promptly and fully.

In a perfect world, we'd all be "experts" in everything we cover, or we'd have unlimited budgets to add staff when the need for expertise arises. But that's not the world we live in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Itâ€™s a desperate fool who thinks â€œwe need more physics in our science writingâ€“ letâ€™s teach physics to writersâ€ rather than â€œletâ€™s get some physics pros to write for us.â€</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to defend poor reporting, bias and the various other problems in journalism. But you&#8217;re dreaming if you think getting &#8220;experts&#8221; to write stories is going to be the magic solution.</p>
<p>From a practical standpoint, most experts in key fields &#8212; science, medicine, finance, law, etc. &#8212; are well-paid, so few if any would ever leave their jobs to become reporters. Even on a free-lance basis, newspapers wouldn&#8217;t come close to paying these people adequately for the time and effort that goes into substantial pieces.</p>
<p>And if these people still hold jobs in their fields while writing for the media, how effective can they be in covering news? (Op-ed pieces are something different.) If you&#8217;re an investment banker, would you talk with a &#8220;reporter&#8221; for the local paper who&#8217;s also an investment banker at one of your main competitors? I doubt it.</p>
<p>The best reporters are curious people who listen well, gather facts diligently, know enough about the subject to ask intelligent questions and aren&#8217;t afraid to ask sources to repeat and explain information they don&#8217;t understand. They correct mistakes promptly and fully.</p>
<p>In a perfect world, we&#8217;d all be &#8220;experts&#8221; in everything we cover, or we&#8217;d have unlimited budgets to add staff when the need for expertise arises. But that&#8217;s not the world we live in.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111680</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111680</guid>
		<description>Its interesting, Penny. Your lists of subjects-- "how would that work? An overview of physics, engineering, medicine, literature, fine art, history, anthropology, etc as part of the journalism curriculum? How ridiculous." -- is actually fairly similar to the original curriculum for the Columbia Jschool proposed by Joseph Pulitzer. He though journalism students should spend most of their time learning Greek, German, Sociology, Politics, Law, Math, etc, though taught in such a way that it would be useful to the journalist. This lasted about 2 years, before the CU administration decided it cost way too much money, and the school moved in a more "professional" direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its interesting, Penny. Your lists of subjects&#8211; &#8220;how would that work? An overview of physics, engineering, medicine, literature, fine art, history, anthropology, etc as part of the journalism curriculum? How ridiculous.&#8221; &#8212; is actually fairly similar to the original curriculum for the Columbia Jschool proposed by Joseph Pulitzer. He though journalism students should spend most of their time learning Greek, German, Sociology, Politics, Law, Math, etc, though taught in such a way that it would be useful to the journalist. This lasted about 2 years, before the CU administration decided it cost way too much money, and the school moved in a more &#8220;professional&#8221; direction.</p>
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		<title>By: alan macleese</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111512</link>
		<dc:creator>alan macleese</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 06:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111512</guid>
		<description>Somebody should tell Oliver Stone that "the press" doesn't write stuff that gets into the newspapers, reporters write stuff and I know quite a few who would get it right, some complicated matter on an obstacle-ridden deadline, and then they'd contact those involved in and ask if they "got it right." And the ones that made those calls generally did get it right, though  Mr. Stone, if he sees that sort of activity, moves right along, sees there is nothing there for him,  no grist for his miil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somebody should tell Oliver Stone that &#8220;the press&#8221; doesn&#8217;t write stuff that gets into the newspapers, reporters write stuff and I know quite a few who would get it right, some complicated matter on an obstacle-ridden deadline, and then they&#8217;d contact those involved in and ask if they &#8220;got it right.&#8221; And the ones that made those calls generally did get it right, though  Mr. Stone, if he sees that sort of activity, moves right along, sees there is nothing there for him,  no grist for his miil.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan G.</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111482</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111482</guid>
		<description>Networked knowledge is hard at work at wikipedia. Both the Atlantic Monthly and the New Yorker recently reported on the subject in that context. Marshall Poe of the Atlantic noted how pooled knowledge can, in the end, push us closest to the full story:

&lt;i&gt;"The power of the community to decide, of course, asks us to reexamine what we mean when we say that something is "true." We tend to think of truth as something that resides in the world. The fact that two plus two equals four is written in the stars--we merely discovered it. But Wikipedia suggest a different theory of truth. Just think about the way we learn what words mean. Generally speaking, we do so by listening to people (our parents, first). Since we want to communicate with them (after all, they feed us), we use the words in the same way they do. Wikipedia says judgments of truth and falsehood work the same way. The community decides that two plus two equals four the same way it decides what an apple is: by consensus. Yes, that means that if the community changes its mind and decides that two plus two equals five, then two plus two does equal five. The community isn't likely to do such an absurd or useless thing, but it has the ability."&lt;/i&gt;

Such implications do translate to the reporting of news, where the degree of aggregated knowledge and information can often have a direct relationship with the value of the story. Journalists are not total experts--not the end-all of information--and the aggregation of knowledge works to direct it to a median. In this respect, networking of knowledge should be encouraged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Networked knowledge is hard at work at wikipedia. Both the Atlantic Monthly and the New Yorker recently reported on the subject in that context. Marshall Poe of the Atlantic noted how pooled knowledge can, in the end, push us closest to the full story:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The power of the community to decide, of course, asks us to reexamine what we mean when we say that something is &#8220;true.&#8221; We tend to think of truth as something that resides in the world. The fact that two plus two equals four is written in the stars&#8211;we merely discovered it. But Wikipedia suggest a different theory of truth. Just think about the way we learn what words mean. Generally speaking, we do so by listening to people (our parents, first). Since we want to communicate with them (after all, they feed us), we use the words in the same way they do. Wikipedia says judgments of truth and falsehood work the same way. The community decides that two plus two equals four the same way it decides what an apple is: by consensus. Yes, that means that if the community changes its mind and decides that two plus two equals five, then two plus two does equal five. The community isn&#8217;t likely to do such an absurd or useless thing, but it has the ability.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Such implications do translate to the reporting of news, where the degree of aggregated knowledge and information can often have a direct relationship with the value of the story. Journalists are not total experts&#8211;not the end-all of information&#8211;and the aggregation of knowledge works to direct it to a median. In this respect, networking of knowledge should be encouraged.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike G</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111469</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111469</guid>
		<description>Penny, quite right.  It's a desperate fool who thinks "we need more physics in our science writing-- let's teach physics to writers" rather than "let's get some physics pros to write for us."

As Oliver Stone said, maybe the wisest thing ever to come from his mouth, "It's when the press writes about something you know about that you realize how wrong they get everything."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Penny, quite right.  It&#8217;s a desperate fool who thinks &#8220;we need more physics in our science writing&#8211; let&#8217;s teach physics to writers&#8221; rather than &#8220;let&#8217;s get some physics pros to write for us.&#8221;</p>
<p>As Oliver Stone said, maybe the wisest thing ever to come from his mouth, &#8220;It&#8217;s when the press writes about something you know about that you realize how wrong they get everything.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Kellogg</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111398</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Kellogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111398</guid>
		<description>Don't teach people new subjects, teach people how to learn about new subjects when the need arises, or they express interest in a new subject. Knowing how to learn does a person more go than being taught.

Teach a man a subject and all he knows is that subject. Teach a man how to learn, and any subject in the world is open to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t teach people new subjects, teach people how to learn about new subjects when the need arises, or they express interest in a new subject. Knowing how to learn does a person more go than being taught.</p>
<p>Teach a man a subject and all he knows is that subject. Teach a man how to learn, and any subject in the world is open to him.</p>
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		<title>By: penny</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111359</link>
		<dc:creator>penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111359</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"I think Jarvis and I also disagree about whether our school should teach students the substance of complicated subjects that they will write about as journalists".&lt;/i&gt;...... 

How would that work? An overview of physics, engineering, medicine, literature, fine art, history, anthropology, etc as part of the journalism curriculum?  How ridiculous. I agree that it would be splendid if these modern news stylists with their form over substance understood with some minimal depth the context of what they are reporting.  But, then, if you want substance, you'd not be seeking it in most of MSM anymore.
 
A pity that Lemann doesn't advocate for easier access into journalism careers more students with core competencies in anything but journalism who have talented writing skills?  His guild mentality is being eroded with every informal and well written site on the internet by people knowledgeable about their field that is bookmarked by readers. 

Let me also add that the most fundamental way that journalism  "can help inform citizens and thus strengthen democracy" is to report the facts correctly without convenient omissions or falsifications, stop the agenda driven rot, and the pc self-censorship that has diminished the public trust and ability to make informed decisions in a democracy.  Lemann is futilely re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I think Jarvis and I also disagree about whether our school should teach students the substance of complicated subjects that they will write about as journalists&#8221;.</i>&#8230;&#8230; </p>
<p>How would that work? An overview of physics, engineering, medicine, literature, fine art, history, anthropology, etc as part of the journalism curriculum?  How ridiculous. I agree that it would be splendid if these modern news stylists with their form over substance understood with some minimal depth the context of what they are reporting.  But, then, if you want substance, you&#8217;d not be seeking it in most of MSM anymore.</p>
<p>A pity that Lemann doesn&#8217;t advocate for easier access into journalism careers more students with core competencies in anything but journalism who have talented writing skills?  His guild mentality is being eroded with every informal and well written site on the internet by people knowledgeable about their field that is bookmarked by readers. </p>
<p>Let me also add that the most fundamental way that journalism  &#8220;can help inform citizens and thus strengthen democracy&#8221; is to report the facts correctly without convenient omissions or falsifications, stop the agenda driven rot, and the pc self-censorship that has diminished the public trust and ability to make informed decisions in a democracy.  Lemann is futilely re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.</p>
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		<title>By: BuzzMachine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; He speaks: Lemann responds</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2006/08/15/he-speaks-lemann-responds/#comment-111241</link>
		<dc:creator>BuzzMachine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; He speaks: Lemann responds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
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