Comments on: Buying their voices http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/ by Jeff Jarvis Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:51:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Sarah Who? « It’s Fall 2008….Do you know where the party is? http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-381480 Sarah Who? « It’s Fall 2008….Do you know where the party is? Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:11:31 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-381480 [...] Jarvis (June 23, 2007). “Buying their voices”. BuzzMachine. HostingMatters. Retrieved on [...] [...] Jarvis (June 23, 2007). “Buying their voices”. BuzzMachine. HostingMatters. Retrieved on [...]

]]> By: On Blogging, Having An Opinion, and the Quality and Trustworthiness of Your Voice : Rethink. http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-380914 On Blogging, Having An Opinion, and the Quality and Trustworthiness of Your Voice : Rethink. Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:02:41 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-380914 [...] Way too long: the essential point is that bloggers were paid to not merely run ads, but promote the ...I feel sorry for Jeff Jarvis, because he’s fighting the good fight, and I’m not sure how this war is to be waged. Can we tell people that getting paid to promote stuff is bad for blogging? That the promotion of stuff requires a credibility with one’s readers that is established independent of an ad campaign, if not opposed to the very concept of being an ad?The deep problem Jarvis is running up against is that blogging does have to become profitable in some way to the people blogging. This blog you’re reading now is partly the result of years of education, and I still do research, check sources, and ask people questions before I sit down to write anything.The idea that quality blogging can just emerge out of nowhere at no cost to anyone is preposterous. But many of us who do blog well are putting up with minimal rewards because we recognize how new the medium is, and how much potential it has.We also recognize that the medium has inherently found a way of exploiting the labor that makes it worthwhile, and that this state of affairs cannot last. Web search companies that drive traffic to my site get something far more valuable than mere money from my writing: they get the credibility that comes from my knowledge, openness, and ability.Jarvis can see this issue a mile away, to his enormous credit. If we want diverse, quality voices on the Net, we need to reward people substantially at some point. Intangible rewards aren’t going to cut it - the money needs to get to the writers at some point. The main reason for this isn’t elitist, but rather democratic.We can’t expect people who have seriously busy lives to be on here reading and responding well for little or no reward. I mean, we need to consider why pay-per-post programs “work” - why so many people flock to them. They’re not selling their voice because they’re evil, or even because they’re wrong. They figure, quite rightly, that the only reward that can be had is one that is guaranteed and that they shouldn’t lose out.Not everyone is going to have a voice as powerful as the WSJ’s editorial board. And why should one labor in the delusion that hearts and minds can be changed when there is money to do things like “eat” readily available?It’s at this point I need to bring up a related issue. Gracchi has written on the concept of “public reason” in Kant: roughly, the idea is that everyone can discuss legislation/policy in their capacity as a scholar, as someone willing to commit his views to writing.I urge all of you to read at least the first paragraph of Kant’s “What is Enlightenment?” I’ve written out a bunch of notes on Kant’s article that will become a longer piece, and the key to that first paragraph is essential for our considerations here. Notice that Kant isn’t really talking about “reason.” He’s talking about being willing to use one’s understanding. In classical terms, that’s more “spiritedness” than “reason,” and note the irony of the words “public reason.” One man alone doesn’t get things entirely correct.I bring this up because the central task of democratic life is for those who know better to teach those who don’t - see Lincoln’s “Temperance Speech” for this teaching. That doesn’t mean we who may know better dominate, but it also means that all bloggers are not created equal. Even in Kant’s gushing over a “will” to “reason,” one’s capacity as a scholar is what allows one to argue one position or another. A soldier is much better at talking about military issues than another, a pastor on religious issues, etc. are examples Kant uses in “What Is Enlightenment?”Of course, Kant flirts with relativism and perhaps too much accountability for those who do know. Those who are willing to write are going to be condemned - that’s probably the deepest lesson I’ve learned on the Internet. And Kant does imply that a citizen will be able to say whatever he wants about taxes, since he’s a “scholar” in the sense he pays them.In the face of these dual concerns - people needing to be paid while not selling their voices, but also a type of expertise being required and respected by a mass audience generally - I wonder if this medium will ever be something more than a mere chaos. Something tells me blogging is a stepping-stone, and nothing more than that. Make friends here, enjoy yourself and learn, but don’t think this can ever be genuinely new media in the sense of “media” being “stable.” The entry costs, ironically enough, are too high to sustain for long, and the ability to think about issues at the highest level leads directly to solipsism here: people will literally see what you write, and then move on, like nothing has been said. Don’t sell your voice because this medium needs you as dispassionate; rather, don’t sell your voice because you need the credibility in all other endeavors you’ll have beyond this. [...] [...] Way too long: the essential point is that bloggers were paid to not merely run ads, but promote the …I feel sorry for Jeff Jarvis, because he’s fighting the good fight, and I’m not sure how this war is to be waged. Can we tell people that getting paid to promote stuff is bad for blogging? That the promotion of stuff requires a credibility with one’s readers that is established independent of an ad campaign, if not opposed to the very concept of being an ad?The deep problem Jarvis is running up against is that blogging does have to become profitable in some way to the people blogging. This blog you’re reading now is partly the result of years of education, and I still do research, check sources, and ask people questions before I sit down to write anything.The idea that quality blogging can just emerge out of nowhere at no cost to anyone is preposterous. But many of us who do blog well are putting up with minimal rewards because we recognize how new the medium is, and how much potential it has.We also recognize that the medium has inherently found a way of exploiting the labor that makes it worthwhile, and that this state of affairs cannot last. Web search companies that drive traffic to my site get something far more valuable than mere money from my writing: they get the credibility that comes from my knowledge, openness, and ability.Jarvis can see this issue a mile away, to his enormous credit. If we want diverse, quality voices on the Net, we need to reward people substantially at some point. Intangible rewards aren’t going to cut it - the money needs to get to the writers at some point. The main reason for this isn’t elitist, but rather democratic.We can’t expect people who have seriously busy lives to be on here reading and responding well for little or no reward. I mean, we need to consider why pay-per-post programs “work” - why so many people flock to them. They’re not selling their voice because they’re evil, or even because they’re wrong. They figure, quite rightly, that the only reward that can be had is one that is guaranteed and that they shouldn’t lose out.Not everyone is going to have a voice as powerful as the WSJ’s editorial board. And why should one labor in the delusion that hearts and minds can be changed when there is money to do things like “eat” readily available?It’s at this point I need to bring up a related issue. Gracchi has written on the concept of “public reason” in Kant: roughly, the idea is that everyone can discuss legislation/policy in their capacity as a scholar, as someone willing to commit his views to writing.I urge all of you to read at least the first paragraph of Kant’s “What is Enlightenment?” I’ve written out a bunch of notes on Kant’s article that will become a longer piece, and the key to that first paragraph is essential for our considerations here. Notice that Kant isn’t really talking about “reason.” He’s talking about being willing to use one’s understanding. In classical terms, that’s more “spiritedness” than “reason,” and note the irony of the words “public reason.” One man alone doesn’t get things entirely correct.I bring this up because the central task of democratic life is for those who know better to teach those who don’t - see Lincoln’s “Temperance Speech” for this teaching. That doesn’t mean we who may know better dominate, but it also means that all bloggers are not created equal. Even in Kant’s gushing over a “will” to “reason,” one’s capacity as a scholar is what allows one to argue one position or another. A soldier is much better at talking about military issues than another, a pastor on religious issues, etc. are examples Kant uses in “What Is Enlightenment?”Of course, Kant flirts with relativism and perhaps too much accountability for those who do know. Those who are willing to write are going to be condemned - that’s probably the deepest lesson I’ve learned on the Internet. And Kant does imply that a citizen will be able to say whatever he wants about taxes, since he’s a “scholar” in the sense he pays them.In the face of these dual concerns - people needing to be paid while not selling their voices, but also a type of expertise being required and respected by a mass audience generally - I wonder if this medium will ever be something more than a mere chaos. Something tells me blogging is a stepping-stone, and nothing more than that. Make friends here, enjoy yourself and learn, but don’t think this can ever be genuinely new media in the sense of “media” being “stable.” The entry costs, ironically enough, are too high to sustain for long, and the ability to think about issues at the highest level leads directly to solipsism here: people will literally see what you write, and then move on, like nothing has been said. Don’t sell your voice because this medium needs you as dispassionate; rather, don’t sell your voice because you need the credibility in all other endeavors you’ll have beyond this. [...]

]]> By: Gadget_Zone » Blog Archive » Sponsored conversations are deceptive marketing http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-380703 Gadget_Zone » Blog Archive » Sponsored conversations are deceptive marketing Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:46:37 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-380703 [...] When the two met, it could only end in one way, and it did: a total fiasco. [...] [...] When the two met, it could only end in one way, and it did: a total fiasco. [...]

]]> By: All Amazing Articles » What Makes a Great Social Media Campaign? http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-379033 All Amazing Articles » What Makes a Great Social Media Campaign? Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:38:28 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-379033 [...] series. Same for Cisco. The Human Network is kind of a cool idea. But a stealth Wikipedia entry? Paid bloggers? We expect more from the firm whose hardware basically runs the Internet. advertising Under poor [...] [...] series. Same for Cisco. The Human Network is kind of a cool idea. But a stealth Wikipedia entry? Paid bloggers? We expect more from the firm whose hardware basically runs the Internet. advertising Under poor [...]

]]> By: trademark registration http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-363998 trademark registration Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:10:42 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-363998 If a business is desperate enough to pay others for lying about their real opinions on blogs, then it reflects on just how horrible that business has become. How far will they fall? If a business is desperate enough to pay others for lying about their real opinions on blogs, then it reflects on just how horrible that business has become. How far will they fall?

]]> By: The Rules of the Game « Public Relations Rogue http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-361479 The Rules of the Game « Public Relations Rogue Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:47:10 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-361479 [...] 2007 in Advertising, Blogs, Marketing, Web 2.0 Prominent blogger Jeff Jarvis has a comprehensive post that nicely summarizes the latest online polemic about the evolving rules of the game for [...] [...] 2007 in Advertising, Blogs, Marketing, Web 2.0 Prominent blogger Jeff Jarvis has a comprehensive post that nicely summarizes the latest online polemic about the evolving rules of the game for [...]

]]> By: BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » About that butt http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-360589 BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » About that butt Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:31:45 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-360589 [...] it comes to traffic. Federated also went down a road they called conversational marketing, where I didn’t want to go. So I decided to shift. I wish FM the best of luck; I’m rooting for them to make [...] [...] it comes to traffic. Federated also went down a road they called conversational marketing, where I didn’t want to go. So I decided to shift. I wish FM the best of luck; I’m rooting for them to make [...]

]]> By: 谷歌治印 Google Blogoscoped 中文版 » Federated Media的广告争议 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-354266 谷歌治印 Google Blogoscoped 中文版 » Federated Media的广告争议 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:52:38 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-354266 [...] 更新：FMçš„John Battelle说维基百科那篇文章的写作背景跟Nick Denton写的不一样，他告诉Jeff Jarvis：“思科想要贴一个他们定义的维基版本，自然而然地他们首先想到了维基百科。感谢你和其他人的输入，他们在维基百科的友站Wikia上做到了。事实上，他们找出了Jimmy Wales的建议。词条在晚些时候被一个编辑独立地放到了维基百科上。” [...] [...] 更新：FMçš„John Battelle说维基百科那篇文章的写作背景跟Nick Denton写的不一样，他告诉Jeff Jarvis：“思科想要贴一个他们定义的维基版本，自然而然地他们首先想到了维基百科。感谢你和其他人的输入，他们在维基百科的友站Wikia上做到了。事实上，他们找出了Jimmy Wales的建议。词条在晚些时候被一个编辑独立地放到了维基百科上。” [...]

]]> By: Spokesblogging at Bene Diction Blogs On http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353659 Spokesblogging at Bene Diction Blogs On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 05:04:12 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353659 [...] the details in a passionate and succinct analysis of the debate. Check out the comments, some of the top [...] [...] the details in a passionate and succinct analysis of the debate. Check out the comments, some of the top [...]

]]> By: Simonsays http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353621 Simonsays Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:18:51 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353621 <strong>Is 'transparency' a genuine value or corporate platitude?...</strong> A story not really covered by UK bloggers was the big hoo-har over Federated Media paying US A-list bloggers to put their names to advertising content. I won't recount the affair as Jeff Jarvis has a comprehensive write-up. But one... Is ‘transparency’ a genuine value or corporate platitude?…

A story not really covered by UK bloggers was the big hoo-har over Federated Media paying US A-list bloggers to put their names to advertising content. I won’t recount the affair as Jeff Jarvis has a comprehensive write-up. But one…

]]> By: job http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353608 job Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:37:09 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353608 "I’m disagreeing with myself." Don't believe everything you think. “I’m disagreeing with myself.”

Don’t believe everything you think.

]]> By: Rethink. http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353374 Rethink. Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:01:04 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353374 <strong>On Blogging, Having An Opinion, and the Quality and Trustworthiness of Your Voice...</strong> ... On Blogging, Having An Opinion, and the Quality and Trustworthiness of Your Voice…

…

]]> By: links for 2007-06-25 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353293 links for 2007-06-25 Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:28:56 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353293 [...] BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Buying their voices Jeff Jarvis analyses the whole situation on Federated Media and Microsoft. (tags: advertising blogging ethics) [...] [...] BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Buying their voices Jeff Jarvis analyses the whole situation on Federated Media and Microsoft. (tags: advertising blogging ethics) [...]

]]> By: Time for blogosphere to get real about church and state - Software http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353292 Time for blogosphere to get real about church and state - Software Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:22:48 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353292 [...] post asked why these guys would inexplicably pimp a Microsoft catchphrase. In a similar vein, Jeff Jarvis had it right when he headlined his comment on the situation "Buying their voices." [...] [...] post asked why these guys would inexplicably pimp a Microsoft catchphrase. In a similar vein, Jeff Jarvis had it right when he headlined his comment on the situation "Buying their voices." [...]

]]> By: Federated Media and Conversational Marketing http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353289 Federated Media and Conversational Marketing Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:24:35 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353289 [...] up, Jeff Jarvis, who gives a detailed, sober account of some background to these types of campaigns I tried to warn [...] [...] up, Jeff Jarvis, who gives a detailed, sober account of some background to these types of campaigns I tried to warn [...]

]]> By: John C. Dvorak http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353284 John C. Dvorak Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:27:27 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353284 Where is Mark Bunting when you need him? Where is Mark Bunting when you need him?

]]> By: A little bit about everything » Blog Archive » The human network http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353184 A little bit about everything » Blog Archive » The human network Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:50:03 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353184 [...] human network is the paradigm and the infrastructure which supports social [...] [...] human network is the paradigm and the infrastructure which supports social [...]

]]> By: Blogosphere rapidly developing a code of ethics, something Old Media never quite got around to « The Future of News http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353158 Blogosphere rapidly developing a code of ethics, something Old Media never quite got around to « The Future of News Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:55:19 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353158 [...] who review technical products can participate in manufacturers’ advertising campaigns (see Jeff Jarvis’ summary). Recently there was a similarly heated debate over whether bloggers have the right to refuse [...] [...] who review technical products can participate in manufacturers’ advertising campaigns (see Jeff Jarvis’ summary). Recently there was a similarly heated debate over whether bloggers have the right to refuse [...]

]]> By: » News to know: Spokesblogs; social networking sweepstakes; iPhone countdown | Between the Lines | ZDNet.com http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353153 » News to know: Spokesblogs; social networking sweepstakes; iPhone countdown | Between the Lines | ZDNet.com Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:42:44 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353153 [...] Jeff Jarvis [...] [...] Jeff Jarvis [...]

]]> By: more stuff, less fluff » Blog Archive » “The ads go up, we get paid” http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353059 more stuff, less fluff » Blog Archive » “The ads go up, we get paid” Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:23:32 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353059 [...] (most recently, Microsoft’s “People Ready” campaign). This doesn’t sit well with many bloggers, and for good [...] [...] (most recently, Microsoft’s “People Ready” campaign). This doesn’t sit well with many bloggers, and for good [...]

]]> By: Adrian D. http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353056 Adrian D. Mon, 25 Jun 2007 04:04:41 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353056 I am disappointed that these bloggers have sold out like this and I will no longer be subscribing to them. There are many other voices -- authentic voices -- on the web that are much more deserving of my time. I am disappointed that these bloggers have sold out like this and I will no longer be subscribing to them. There are many other voices — authentic voices — on the web that are much more deserving of my time.

]]> By: links for 2007-06-25 « David Black http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353051 links for 2007-06-25 « David Black Mon, 25 Jun 2007 01:29:13 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353051 [...] BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Buying their voices Jeff Jarvis on the Federated Media advertising kerfuffle: “I’ll just speak for myself with my advertising policy in greater detail” (tags: internet blogging journalism advertising federatedmedia) [...] [...] BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Buying their voices Jeff Jarvis on the Federated Media advertising kerfuffle: “I’ll just speak for myself with my advertising policy in greater detail” (tags: internet blogging journalism advertising federatedmedia) [...]

]]> By: Technovia » del.icio.us bookmarks for June 24th http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353045 Technovia » del.icio.us bookmarks for June 24th Mon, 25 Jun 2007 00:32:01 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353045 [...] BuzzMachine » Buying their voices - I don’t always agree with Jeff Jarvis, but this comment on the Federated Media “People ready” mess is spot on. June 25th, 2007 [...] [...] BuzzMachine » Buying their voices - I don’t always agree with Jeff Jarvis, but this comment on the Federated Media “People ready” mess is spot on. June 25th, 2007 [...]

]]> By: Finite http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353043 Finite Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:51:54 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353043 What a bunch of doublespeak! Om's bit said “Commerce […] is business” (seriously) To me, the “people ready” slogan brings to mind an image of an empty failing shop, with the owner pacing around wondering why they don’t have any customers anymore despite their obvious readiness for people… kind of like Micros~1, come to think of it :) What a bunch of doublespeak! Om’s bit said “Commerce […] is business” (seriously)

To me, the “people ready” slogan brings to mind an image of an empty failing shop, with the owner pacing around wondering why they don’t have any customers anymore despite their obvious readiness for people… kind of like Micros~1, come to think of it :)

]]> By: Deepak http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353012 Deepak Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:34:00 +0000 http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/06/23/buying-their-voices/#comment-353012 Jeff Completely respect your consistency and opinion. I do still think that others are not quite the same. I don't think this is the last of the discussion on the boundaries between blogging, marketing and monetization. Jeff

Completely respect your consistency and opinion. I do still think that others are not quite the same. I don’t think this is the last of the discussion on the boundaries between blogging, marketing and monetization.

]]>