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	<title>Comments on: What he says</title>
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	<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/</link>
	<description>by Jeff Jarvis</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 05:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Redefining News &#171; Public Relations Rogue</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-361459</link>
		<dc:creator>Redefining News &#171; Public Relations Rogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-361459</guid>
		<description>[...] the article. Jeff Jarvis hasÂ blogged a number of times on this topic - including a recent post detailing a back-and-forth polemic between the LA Times editorial staff critical of the feature and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the article. Jeff Jarvis hasÂ blogged a number of times on this topic - including a recent post detailing a back-and-forth polemic between the LA Times editorial staff critical of the feature and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John C Abell</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357836</link>
		<dc:creator>John C Abell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357836</guid>
		<description>"Letâ€™s say company X stonewalls, and then comments as you say â€¦ well, why do you think that ends the conversation. Company X just made news by their comments, not matter how untruthful. Your story just got better. The reporter goes and writes a story about the comments and debunks them. More truth is illuminated. Readers are better informed, and they have a clearer picture of who company x really is."

But does this reporter counter-punch go along with the original story and company x comments? And per Google rules does the reporter get to comment on the comment (he or his publication being cited in the rebuttal)? This is about proximity. If the conversation doesn't continue in the same place it looks like the commenter has the last word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Letâ€™s say company X stonewalls, and then comments as you say â€¦ well, why do you think that ends the conversation. Company X just made news by their comments, not matter how untruthful. Your story just got better. The reporter goes and writes a story about the comments and debunks them. More truth is illuminated. Readers are better informed, and they have a clearer picture of who company x really is.&#8221;</p>
<p>But does this reporter counter-punch go along with the original story and company x comments? And per Google rules does the reporter get to comment on the comment (he or his publication being cited in the rebuttal)? This is about proximity. If the conversation doesn&#8217;t continue in the same place it looks like the commenter has the last word.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard Owens</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357813</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Owens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357813</guid>
		<description>It's something we started after leaving California ... had to get more civilized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s something we started after leaving California &#8230; had to get more civilized.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Welch</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357753</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357753</guid>
		<description>Howard -- Wait, you people take &lt;i&gt;showers?&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard &#8212; Wait, you people take <i>showers?</i></p>
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		<title>By: Howard Owens</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357744</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Owens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357744</guid>
		<description>Well, damn, I wish I had taken the time to proof read ... 

After I posted this and jumped in the shower ... I thought more and wish I had also said ...

It's also not just up to the Times' reporters, or other professionals to be vigilant for spin, lies and obfuscation.  Bloggers are in the game, too.

And that, I think, acts as a great check on what Mr. Healey fears.  

I'm still a big believer in Ken Layne's "now we can fact check your ass."  

That doesn't just apply to politicians and slimy journalists/pundits. It applies to corporate CEOs, too.

Mr. Healey, you may have more years in a newsroom than I, and involved more in direct news gathering than I have been in years -- I don't know, but I don't think my credentials in that regard make me any kind of slouch or amateur either.

Still, I have great faith in the conversation.

Fact checking and truth telling is no longer a journalistic monopoly.  We all get to play the game.  I just think that's a damn good thing.  

Google's comment system, however it ultimately works, is just one slice of the conversation.  It will never be the whole conversation.

In another post, I see Jeff makes reference to trying to organize this conversation, but as anybody who has been in a group setting with a bunch of smart people, and maybe one or two dumb ones, there is no good way to organize this.  Organization would kill it.  Let the conversation be free.   That, I think, serves democracy better.

In the age of distributed media, citizen media -- transparency is required. Those who try to hide their vileness will usually be found out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, damn, I wish I had taken the time to proof read &#8230; </p>
<p>After I posted this and jumped in the shower &#8230; I thought more and wish I had also said &#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also not just up to the Times&#8217; reporters, or other professionals to be vigilant for spin, lies and obfuscation.  Bloggers are in the game, too.</p>
<p>And that, I think, acts as a great check on what Mr. Healey fears.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m still a big believer in Ken Layne&#8217;s &#8220;now we can fact check your ass.&#8221;  </p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t just apply to politicians and slimy journalists/pundits. It applies to corporate CEOs, too.</p>
<p>Mr. Healey, you may have more years in a newsroom than I, and involved more in direct news gathering than I have been in years &#8212; I don&#8217;t know, but I don&#8217;t think my credentials in that regard make me any kind of slouch or amateur either.</p>
<p>Still, I have great faith in the conversation.</p>
<p>Fact checking and truth telling is no longer a journalistic monopoly.  We all get to play the game.  I just think that&#8217;s a damn good thing.  </p>
<p>Google&#8217;s comment system, however it ultimately works, is just one slice of the conversation.  It will never be the whole conversation.</p>
<p>In another post, I see Jeff makes reference to trying to organize this conversation, but as anybody who has been in a group setting with a bunch of smart people, and maybe one or two dumb ones, there is no good way to organize this.  Organization would kill it.  Let the conversation be free.   That, I think, serves democracy better.</p>
<p>In the age of distributed media, citizen media &#8212; transparency is required. Those who try to hide their vileness will usually be found out.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Healey</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357729</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Healey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357729</guid>
		<description>It's usually safe to bet that I'm not getting all or part of whatever I'm writing about, but I don't think I'm quite the mossback I'm being made out to be here. I'm just pessimistic, based on a lot of years as a reporter, that Google's move will yield the suggested results. I see it more as a tool for PR than anything else. Remember, Google isn't providing a platform for lots of back and forth among readers; it's just giving space to "participants" in a story. That means the follow-up has to happen elsewhere, in sight of fewer readers (by definition; everyone has fewer readers that Google, no?). I agree that the future of news is distributed and atomized, with readers immersing themselves amid multiple, changing sources. Still, it seems odd and unfortunate to me that Google is providing such a restricted platform, open only to a select few speakers and resistant to correction -- unless, as Mr. Owens' counter-example provides, those speakers are foolish enough to lie in a detectible way, instead of just spinning.
I also agree that we at the Times should be providing a better forum for discussions about the news we publish, and we're going to get there. Not as rapidly as we should have done, obviously, but it'll happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s usually safe to bet that I&#8217;m not getting all or part of whatever I&#8217;m writing about, but I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m quite the mossback I&#8217;m being made out to be here. I&#8217;m just pessimistic, based on a lot of years as a reporter, that Google&#8217;s move will yield the suggested results. I see it more as a tool for PR than anything else. Remember, Google isn&#8217;t providing a platform for lots of back and forth among readers; it&#8217;s just giving space to &#8220;participants&#8221; in a story. That means the follow-up has to happen elsewhere, in sight of fewer readers (by definition; everyone has fewer readers that Google, no?). I agree that the future of news is distributed and atomized, with readers immersing themselves amid multiple, changing sources. Still, it seems odd and unfortunate to me that Google is providing such a restricted platform, open only to a select few speakers and resistant to correction &#8212; unless, as Mr. Owens&#8217; counter-example provides, those speakers are foolish enough to lie in a detectible way, instead of just spinning.<br />
I also agree that we at the Times should be providing a better forum for discussions about the news we publish, and we&#8217;re going to get there. Not as rapidly as we should have done, obviously, but it&#8217;ll happen.</p>
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		<title>By: BuzzMachine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The architecture of content and comments</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357713</link>
		<dc:creator>BuzzMachine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The architecture of content and comments</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357713</guid>
		<description>[...] BuzzMachine by Jeff Jarvis--&#62;      &#171; What he says [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] BuzzMachine by Jeff Jarvis&#8211;&gt;      &laquo; What he says [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cubbison</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357709</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cubbison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357709</guid>
		<description>In Syracuse, we don't get the CEOs commenting, yet, but we get the families of crime victims expressing their grief and the families of the suspects begging for understanding. It's a different dimension to crime coverage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Syracuse, we don&#8217;t get the CEOs commenting, yet, but we get the families of crime victims expressing their grief and the families of the suspects begging for understanding. It&#8217;s a different dimension to crime coverage.</p>
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		<title>By: Media Influencer</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357706</link>
		<dc:creator>Media Influencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357706</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Quote to remember...&lt;/strong&gt;

First, readers are smarter than most journalists give them credit for; Second, thanks to blogs and such, theyâ€™re getting smarter. The thing about the new information economy is we all have to be smarter, and thatâ€™s happening, because weâ€™re largel...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Quote to remember&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>First, readers are smarter than most journalists give them credit for; Second, thanks to blogs and such, theyâ€™re getting smarter. The thing about the new information economy is we all have to be smarter, and thatâ€™s happening, because weâ€™re largel&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Gauvin</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357701</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Gauvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2007/08/23/what-he-says-3/#comment-357701</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

Youâ€™re right. The ability for readers to comment on news stories will be soon be the norm, but I donâ€™t think it adds as much value as you predict. I read sfgate.com quite a lot and it has this feature, and I canâ€™t say it plays out anything like what you describe. It usually seems like a place for people to let of steam, make off topic statements, make insults, argue amongst each other, show their stupidity, etc. Theoretically there could be someone with enough facts and writing ability (letâ€™s face it most average people donâ€™t have these skills, thatâ€™s why we value trained journalists) who can build on and extend the reporterâ€™s work, but more often than not comments come in the form of attacks on the reporterâ€™s skill, credibility and relevance, with the assumption that the reporting system is bogus, and flawed in the first place. I donâ€™t think the kind of facts, corrections, counterbalance and perspective you describe will be produced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>Youâ€™re right. The ability for readers to comment on news stories will be soon be the norm, but I donâ€™t think it adds as much value as you predict. I read sfgate.com quite a lot and it has this feature, and I canâ€™t say it plays out anything like what you describe. It usually seems like a place for people to let of steam, make off topic statements, make insults, argue amongst each other, show their stupidity, etc. Theoretically there could be someone with enough facts and writing ability (letâ€™s face it most average people donâ€™t have these skills, thatâ€™s why we value trained journalists) who can build on and extend the reporterâ€™s work, but more often than not comments come in the form of attacks on the reporterâ€™s skill, credibility and relevance, with the assumption that the reporting system is bogus, and flawed in the first place. I donâ€™t think the kind of facts, corrections, counterbalance and perspective you describe will be produced.</p>
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