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	<title>Comments on: They kill horses, don&#8217;t they?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/</link>
	<description>by Jeff Jarvis</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Rishi Gajria</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374627</link>
		<dc:creator>Rishi Gajria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 06:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374627</guid>
		<description>As Cartman would say MR. Jarvis,

Na Na Na Na, Ha Ha Ha Ha :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Cartman would say MR. Jarvis,</p>
<p>Na Na Na Na, Ha Ha Ha Ha <img src='http://www.buzzmachine.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: ashok</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374615</link>
		<dc:creator>ashok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 21:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374615</guid>
		<description>As a conservative, for the longest time I felt coverage of issues by many networks was much like the way you describe the ABC piece. I still feel that way, and it is fun to watch Fox News and realize how different the news can be - this includes the times when I disagree with Fox News.

The discussion you're having with Mr. Tapper about "angles" seems to me problematic. It looks like a journalist can pick any angle he wants, but has to stay consistent with it. The angles themselves, it is assumed, do not lead to bias. Fully worked through, the angles act like prompts, questions that can be asked potentially of any candidate or issue or whatever. But TV news can't possibly fully work through an angle: hence, Mr. Tapper's comment above looks like an indictment of Hillary and nothing more. That's all the "news" we have time for.

Roughly speaking, the way around angles is by providing tons of information, so much that even while the journalist is providing "here's how I see the situation," a careful thoughtful audience can construct their own arguments for why something is. But I might be thinking wishfully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a conservative, for the longest time I felt coverage of issues by many networks was much like the way you describe the ABC piece. I still feel that way, and it is fun to watch Fox News and realize how different the news can be - this includes the times when I disagree with Fox News.</p>
<p>The discussion you&#8217;re having with Mr. Tapper about &#8220;angles&#8221; seems to me problematic. It looks like a journalist can pick any angle he wants, but has to stay consistent with it. The angles themselves, it is assumed, do not lead to bias. Fully worked through, the angles act like prompts, questions that can be asked potentially of any candidate or issue or whatever. But TV news can&#8217;t possibly fully work through an angle: hence, Mr. Tapper&#8217;s comment above looks like an indictment of Hillary and nothing more. That&#8217;s all the &#8220;news&#8221; we have time for.</p>
<p>Roughly speaking, the way around angles is by providing tons of information, so much that even while the journalist is providing &#8220;here&#8217;s how I see the situation,&#8221; a careful thoughtful audience can construct their own arguments for why something is. But I might be thinking wishfully.</p>
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		<title>By: BA Benedict</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374612</link>
		<dc:creator>BA Benedict</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374612</guid>
		<description>"Breaking off for in-depth looks? How many of those can we take?"

How about one? 

And, no, I don't mean the health care plan that "covers everyone" versus the one that "makes it affordable to everyone." We've gotten that particular bit of subtlety, thanks. So how about some details on how each would like to renegotiate NAFTA or other trade agreements (I've heard no specifics from either candidate about how we can level the playing field yet benefit from more open markets), on what job-creation initiatives they are proposing (beyond the de riguer infrastructure investment), their positions on a weak/strong dollar, stances on net neutrality, on the bolstering of our funding for Social Security obligations (beyond, or instead of, raising the salary cap), how would they combat poverty, what about bankruptcy reform, how about a fulsome response to McCain's judges speech (is the Republican really repudiating the Berger Court's achievements wholesale?), electoral reform, enhancing civic responsibility, countering anti-democratic trends in Russia, supporting human rights in China, revitalizing poverty relief and hunger problems across the globe. I haven't even gotten to global warming or homeland security (where are they on FISA? what's their definition of torture--good to know since the president gets to decide under McCain's watered down legislation).

Or we could talk about religion, race, hypocrisy, and guilt by association some more. Whatever.

Or we could talk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Breaking off for in-depth looks? How many of those can we take?&#8221;</p>
<p>How about one? </p>
<p>And, no, I don&#8217;t mean the health care plan that &#8220;covers everyone&#8221; versus the one that &#8220;makes it affordable to everyone.&#8221; We&#8217;ve gotten that particular bit of subtlety, thanks. So how about some details on how each would like to renegotiate NAFTA or other trade agreements (I&#8217;ve heard no specifics from either candidate about how we can level the playing field yet benefit from more open markets), on what job-creation initiatives they are proposing (beyond the de riguer infrastructure investment), their positions on a weak/strong dollar, stances on net neutrality, on the bolstering of our funding for Social Security obligations (beyond, or instead of, raising the salary cap), how would they combat poverty, what about bankruptcy reform, how about a fulsome response to McCain&#8217;s judges speech (is the Republican really repudiating the Berger Court&#8217;s achievements wholesale?), electoral reform, enhancing civic responsibility, countering anti-democratic trends in Russia, supporting human rights in China, revitalizing poverty relief and hunger problems across the globe. I haven&#8217;t even gotten to global warming or homeland security (where are they on FISA? what&#8217;s their definition of torture&#8211;good to know since the president gets to decide under McCain&#8217;s watered down legislation).</p>
<p>Or we could talk about religion, race, hypocrisy, and guilt by association some more. Whatever.</p>
<p>Or we could talk</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Tyndall</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374611</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Tyndall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374611</guid>
		<description>BuzzMachine mangled the link for me. My apologies to everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BuzzMachine mangled the link for me. My apologies to everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Tyndall</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374610</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Tyndall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374610</guid>
		<description>sorry, mangled link for &lt;a href="tyndallreport.com/comment/20/2686" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Obamania Down the Drain&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry, mangled link for <a href="tyndallreport.com/comment/20/2686" rel="nofollow"><i>Obamania Down the Drain</i></a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Tyndall</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374609</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Tyndall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374609</guid>
		<description>Jarvis -- as the resident expert in the fine art of parsing network news stories, Tyndall sez that BuzzMachine's skin seems a little too thin on this call.

Tapper reports that in finetuning her campaign, Rodham Clinton has settled on the image of working class hero populist. Seems accurate to me. As for Tapper's search for an angle, her ridicule of the idea of taking advice from policy experts as a form of elitism on Stephanopoulos on Sunday qualifies as a news hook.

You are right that Terry Moran's follow-up profile of Obama was lame, but as &lt;i&gt;Tyndall Report&lt;/i&gt; has observed--see &lt;a href="tyndallreport.com/comment/20/2686" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;i&gt;Obamania Down the Drain&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;--Obama received such a drubbing Obama during April that the slack he was given by Moran was hardly par for the course</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jarvis &#8212; as the resident expert in the fine art of parsing network news stories, Tyndall sez that BuzzMachine&#8217;s skin seems a little too thin on this call.</p>
<p>Tapper reports that in finetuning her campaign, Rodham Clinton has settled on the image of working class hero populist. Seems accurate to me. As for Tapper&#8217;s search for an angle, her ridicule of the idea of taking advice from policy experts as a form of elitism on Stephanopoulos on Sunday qualifies as a news hook.</p>
<p>You are right that Terry Moran&#8217;s follow-up profile of Obama was lame, but as <i>Tyndall Report</i> has observed&#8211;see <a href="tyndallreport.com/comment/20/2686" rel="nofollow"><i>Obamania Down the Drain</i></a>&#8211;Obama received such a drubbing Obama during April that the slack he was given by Moran was hardly par for the course</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk Caraway</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374604</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk Caraway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 18:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374604</guid>
		<description>Seem John Edwards was hit over and over on the issue of how the rich guy can claim to be helping the poor. The only bias here is that Hillary didn't get hit with this elite stuff back then. She got a free ride because she waited until last month to release her tax info. But now that she brings up the subject by trying to stick that label on Obama, she's fair game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seem John Edwards was hit over and over on the issue of how the rich guy can claim to be helping the poor. The only bias here is that Hillary didn&#8217;t get hit with this elite stuff back then. She got a free ride because she waited until last month to release her tax info. But now that she brings up the subject by trying to stick that label on Obama, she&#8217;s fair game.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert John Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374595</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert John Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 15:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374595</guid>
		<description>Jeff, it's obvious.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, it&#8217;s obvious.  <img src='http://www.buzzmachine.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Jarvis</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374589</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Jarvis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 14:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374589</guid>
		<description>OK, Jake, a story on flip-flopping might have been a more legit angle but still, there's little new there. Everything said about NAFTA has been said. The gas-tax angle deserves attention -- but it has been noted that Clinton and McCain may share an idea but that Obama's idea of a $1,000 tax cut for all is very much a Bushy idea. Gun control? Seen that story, too. Yes, there were other angles, but what was really new there? 
As for the "elites" meme, I will repeat: What Democrat has not railed against elites (even those in the party)?
I can't read into your process, but I can surmise that this is a problem inherent in the way we do campaign converage. Nothing new happened today, but of course, you can't say that. Breaking off for in-depth looks? How many of those can we take? So there is the desperate search for the peg, the angle. 
I wonder whether commentary would not be a better vehicle for the insights and perspective. It may be less prone to stretched pegs. 
Don't get me wrong: I'm still a fan, still watch, still read. But your lead last night made me sputter. 
(And full dislcosure for anyone new to this discussion: If it's not already obvious, I'm a Clinton voter.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Jake, a story on flip-flopping might have been a more legit angle but still, there&#8217;s little new there. Everything said about NAFTA has been said. The gas-tax angle deserves attention &#8212; but it has been noted that Clinton and McCain may share an idea but that Obama&#8217;s idea of a $1,000 tax cut for all is very much a Bushy idea. Gun control? Seen that story, too. Yes, there were other angles, but what was really new there?<br />
As for the &#8220;elites&#8221; meme, I will repeat: What Democrat has not railed against elites (even those in the party)?<br />
I can&#8217;t read into your process, but I can surmise that this is a problem inherent in the way we do campaign converage. Nothing new happened today, but of course, you can&#8217;t say that. Breaking off for in-depth looks? How many of those can we take? So there is the desperate search for the peg, the angle.<br />
I wonder whether commentary would not be a better vehicle for the insights and perspective. It may be less prone to stretched pegs.<br />
Don&#8217;t get me wrong: I&#8217;m still a fan, still watch, still read. But your lead last night made me sputter.<br />
(And full dislcosure for anyone new to this discussion: If it&#8217;s not already obvious, I&#8217;m a Clinton voter.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374584</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 13:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374584</guid>
		<description>You're not addressing any of the myriad other aspects to the story -- gun control, gas taxes, NAFTA, her railing against "elites"... I'm sorry if I upset your daughter. (Said sincerely.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re not addressing any of the myriad other aspects to the story &#8212; gun control, gas taxes, NAFTA, her railing against &#8220;elites&#8221;&#8230; I&#8217;m sorry if I upset your daughter. (Said sincerely.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Jarvis</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374583</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Jarvis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 12:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374583</guid>
		<description>Jake,

I'm a fan and I watched your piece again - this time not interrupted by my daughter asking me to explain why you were saying those things about Hillary Clinton - but I stand by what I said here: This was a nonstory with troubling timing. You project Hillary as if she were on the floor of Wall Street and say as if an accusation that she's a multimillionaire who says she's fighting for the working man. I repeat: What Democrat -- what candidate from either party, for that matter -- does not fit that exact biographical and rhetorical categorization especially while in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jake,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a fan and I watched your piece again - this time not interrupted by my daughter asking me to explain why you were saying those things about Hillary Clinton - but I stand by what I said here: This was a nonstory with troubling timing. You project Hillary as if she were on the floor of Wall Street and say as if an accusation that she&#8217;s a multimillionaire who says she&#8217;s fighting for the working man. I repeat: What Democrat &#8212; what candidate from either party, for that matter &#8212; does not fit that exact biographical and rhetorical categorization especially while in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan?</p>
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		<title>By: bob c</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374580</link>
		<dc:creator>bob c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 11:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374580</guid>
		<description>jeff

broadcast "news" is an oxymoron

that said, some real journalist is investigating how the clintons made all that money.  won't be on abc or cnn = but it will be news.

and...um...seriously, your level of objectiveness is approaching faux news</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jeff</p>
<p>broadcast &#8220;news&#8221; is an oxymoron</p>
<p>that said, some real journalist is investigating how the clintons made all that money.  won&#8217;t be on abc or cnn = but it will be news.</p>
<p>and&#8230;um&#8230;seriously, your level of objectiveness is approaching faux news</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374544</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 03:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374544</guid>
		<description>Jake Tapper here. I'm surprised, Jeff, this is a pretty unfair portrait of the story we did. 

Our look at how Sen. Clinton has re-packaged herself went way beyond her being a multimillionaire now talking about helping the middle class.

We talked about the gas tax her husband raised that she rails against, the trade deals she worked to pass that now she rails against, her painting Obama as an elitist who doesn't know the vakue of $20. 

We went into how Sen. Clinton has taken millions from Wall Street and was on the cover of Fortune with a headline "Business Loves Hillary" while on the trail she bashes Wall Street. 

How she has supported gun control and yet she's attacking Obama for that very issue. 

And how she is now railing against "elite" opinion opposing her gas tax, by saying elite opinion always favors steps that hurt a majority of the American people.

Your readers can watch it here &#62; 

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=4792192</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jake Tapper here. I&#8217;m surprised, Jeff, this is a pretty unfair portrait of the story we did. </p>
<p>Our look at how Sen. Clinton has re-packaged herself went way beyond her being a multimillionaire now talking about helping the middle class.</p>
<p>We talked about the gas tax her husband raised that she rails against, the trade deals she worked to pass that now she rails against, her painting Obama as an elitist who doesn&#8217;t know the vakue of $20. </p>
<p>We went into how Sen. Clinton has taken millions from Wall Street and was on the cover of Fortune with a headline &#8220;Business Loves Hillary&#8221; while on the trail she bashes Wall Street. </p>
<p>How she has supported gun control and yet she&#8217;s attacking Obama for that very issue. </p>
<p>And how she is now railing against &#8220;elite&#8221; opinion opposing her gas tax, by saying elite opinion always favors steps that hurt a majority of the American people.</p>
<p>Your readers can watch it here &gt; </p>
<p><a href="http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=4792192" rel="nofollow">http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=4792192</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve K.</title>
		<link>http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374540</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 02:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/05/05/they-kill-horses-dont-they/#comment-374540</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

All the candidates are millionaires, so that puts them all in a different class from me and the vast majority of Americans. But this latest, reluctant disclosure by Clinton shows just how ultra-wealthy she is when compared with Obama's readily disclosed income from the same time period. 

So who do I think has a better chance of being "in touch" with working class Americans? Not Clinton, although she's doing a good job of selling that line on the campaign trail right now.

Here's what I think -- "Clinton Playing the Class Card":
http://www.knightopia.com/journal/?p=899

I'd love to know your thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>All the candidates are millionaires, so that puts them all in a different class from me and the vast majority of Americans. But this latest, reluctant disclosure by Clinton shows just how ultra-wealthy she is when compared with Obama&#8217;s readily disclosed income from the same time period. </p>
<p>So who do I think has a better chance of being &#8220;in touch&#8221; with working class Americans? Not Clinton, although she&#8217;s doing a good job of selling that line on the campaign trail right now.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I think &#8212; &#8220;Clinton Playing the Class Card&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://www.knightopia.com/journal/?p=899" rel="nofollow">http://www.knightopia.com/journal/?p=899</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to know your thoughts.</p>
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