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I don't think they believe they have a mandate on "moral values". If Bush tries to nominate three Supreme Court Justices with the declared intent of overturning Roe V. Wade, he's gonna catch hell from half the people who voted for him and from all the ones who didn't. He had better be sure to nominate a true moderate or two out of those three. And in the true nature of "bringing the country together", he should nominate a moderate right off of the bat. And in continuing the "bringing the country together", the Democrats should embrace a moderate as if he was a leftist looney.MA1 converter Posted by: Easycure on November 8, 2004 10:04 AM

In 2000, the 'moral values' theme was playing on the highjinks of the Clinton/Monica scandal. In 2004, there was no scandal to play off of. MA1 converter

If this administration nominates a moderate to the Supreme Court, should a vacancy arise, it could be seen as an affront to many who voted on the issues of gay marriage and abortion. It will be interesting to see what kind of legacy the administration adopts, in its choice of a nominee.MA1 converter Posted by: Blueprint on November 8, 2004 11:54 AM

Sullivan's statement is true, strictly speaking, but misleading, because he forgets that the James Dobsons, William Bennets, Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of this country only add up to 1/2 of the group claiming that "moral values" (read: gay marriage) decided this election. The other half include Paul Krugman, Dianne Feinstein and other Dems/lefties who refuse to acknowledge their own weakness on foreign policy.MA1 converter

The flipside of AS's statement is that, while the voters are trending the Democrats way on gay rights, they are not trending their way on national security, and if the leftists (and the Democrats who listen to them) continue to cocoon themselves with this very comfortable opinion of their 04 loss it will be repeated in 08.MA1 converter Posted by: Sean on November 8, 2004 12:29 PM

Republican "values" is the biggest crock of shit.MA1 converter

Where are the highest dirvorce rates, the lowest IQs, the worst schools? Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Texas.MA1 converter

"Born agains" have the highest divorce rates.MA1 converter

Where are the best strip clubs? In the Red States.MA1 converter

Which party's convention hade stip club owners shipping girls in from out of state? The RNC.MA1 converter

Lowest divorce rates, highest high-school graduation rates, highest wages? Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Vermont.MA1 converter

Let's not forget racism, slavery, and general bigotry.MA1 converter

Ah well. Maybe after Bush bankrupts us and kills a lot more dark people, even the morons in Red States will wake up.MA1 converter

A man can dream.MA1 converter Posted by: Angelos on November 8, 2004 12:36 PM

Angelos,MA1 converter

Dream on!MA1 converter Posted by: John on November 8, 2004 12:59 PM

You're right. They'll never see the light. They've got god on their side, and stuff. MA1 converter Posted by: Angelos on November 8, 2004 01:04 PM

Angelos that is highlarious!!! I think your head is going to explode. But go on and keep claiming moral and intellectual superiority over the Red Staters, keep calling them dolts, bigots, homophobes, racists, or what have you. Keep on being condescending and dismissive of those who disagree with you and watch as the same thing happens in the 2008 election. MA1 converter

All your arrogance as well as your ignorance is beautifully displayed in that one post.MA1 converter Posted by: Mike on November 8, 2004 01:23 PM

Bunch o' bible thumpin', Confederate flag wavin', gospel preachin', Dukes of Hazzard rerun watchin', Piggly Wiggly shoppin', Bush bullshit believin', grits eatin' dummies. Wake up and smell the (chickory flavored) coffee, your president lies to you! MA1 converter Posted by: Frank on November 8, 2004 01:46 PM

Those who think it's a religious issue are fools.MA1 converter

Moral values:MA1 converter

Includes not lying....MA1 converter

Not saying you are against abortion, but you have voted for it and partial-birth over and over...MA1 converter

Not comparing Zarquawi/terrorsts to US Revolution minutemen....MA1 converter

You know, all of those character issues Jeff and many of you said weren't important - they are. You don't have to be religious of any stripe to have morality.MA1 converter Posted by: Catherine on November 8, 2004 01:51 PM

"You don't have to be religious of any stripe to have morality." I would definitely second this..as would many on the left.MA1 converter

Where those of us on the left start to balk, however, is when the right stakes out the so-called high ground by equating religion with morality. You & I agree on this, but I would venture a majority of social conscervatives do not believe you can have one w/out the other. MA1 converter

That said, I really do hope Bush puts country over party in the next four years. He's got a blank slate to win the rest of the country over and leave a real legacy for our grandkids vs. a sad footnote that we are left recovering from for 50 years.MA1 converter Posted by: scott on November 8, 2004 02:05 PM

MSM exit polls say that 'moral values' were the impetus for the Bush/republican victory.MA1 converter

MSM programs have been defining this term, 'moral values' as being against gay marriage, abortion and stem cell research funding.MA1 converter

Haven't we learned not to listen to the MSM? Hasn't their credibilty proven itself to be as thin as turnip soup?MA1 converter

Bush voters voted to support the war. Listen to them. When asked, they respond to the 'moral values' meme with consternation--and attempts to paint their reasoning into a 'moral values' corner. They don't go on about gay marriage.MA1 converter Posted by: jack on November 8, 2004 02:10 PM

"Again: the Republicans should be wary of over-playing their hand. If they believe the entire country is the religious right, the backlash could begin very soon."MA1 converter

Typical obtuseness of the Left. It's not the Republicans who believe the "entire country is the religous right," it's the Democrats! All their hyperbolic, insulting rhetoric in the last days, weeks, and months of this election cycle exposes their psychosis and fear of their boogeyman "religious right." Millions of people voted for President Bush - I was one of them - and I'm not of the dreaded "religious right." MA1 converter Posted by: Liz on November 8, 2004 02:16 PM

I am a Bush supporter.MA1 converter

I have not practiced in a formal religious setting since my high school days.MA1 converter

My life has been a spiritual journey nonetheless, and at one time or another I have contemplated most aspects of the range of human beliefs.MA1 converter

Most recently, I have settled on the idea that it is important to believe in something greater than us. By us, I mean myself as an individual, as well as humankind in general, with all our faults.MA1 converter

As soon as I accept the fact that I can't know everything, it is easier to accept that I don't know everything, and I become capable of learning.MA1 converter

Those who lump all conservatives together have not, or will not, look more closely. We are as diverse as is the topography of this nation.MA1 converter

I do not begrudge the Religious Right their beliefs, or their right to advocate for causes, and they would not deny me the liberty to seek my own God.MA1 converter Posted by: John on November 8, 2004 02:30 PM

andrew sullivan has maybe a little bit of an agenda behind his finding that America is becoming less moral, he is afterall an enormous advocate for gay marriage.MA1 converter

So of course he will take facts and compare them as though there is a vacuum that exists from election to election.MA1 converter

There isn't though. Each election is incredibly unique.MA1 converter

If we were to put gay marriage on the ballot it would lose, regardless of the year. If the activist courts would have brought this issue to the forefront in 1992 or any other year for that matter, the numbers would have been very different.MA1 converter

The entire moral issue is being over-analyzed anyway. When the voters say they voted on the basis of morals it was an easy choice; George Bush has morals, John Kerry lacks morals. Simple.MA1 converter

I do understand the left's need to find the easy answer for their failures.MA1 converter

May they continue with the simple platitudes while ignoring the facts that are at the core of the issues.MA1 converter Posted by: natt on November 8, 2004 02:51 PM

Natt:MA1 converter

George Bush's morals seem to say it is alright to cook the books on intelligence if it supports his war plans. They say it is alright to bomb women and children if it _might_ get a terrorist or two. And apparently his morals say that it is okay to spend well beyond your means and hope that we hit the economic lottery before the notes come due.MA1 converter

John Kerry was far from my choice as a perfect candidate. I can think of many in both parties that I would have rather voted for. George Bush isn't on that list.MA1 converter Posted by: Lost Soul on November 8, 2004 03:08 PM

Just quoting the numbers, Mike.MA1 converter

I'm a country boy, just like those "hard-working American with values" in the red states. The only cities I've ever enjoyed being in are Athens (frenetic), Montreal (clean and classy), Boston, and Amsterdam (marijuana bars!!!).MA1 converter

Remember, north of NYC, there is a friggin LOT of clean, beautiful land, of which I own 80-some acres.MA1 converter

I've been to 20+ countries around the world, and I've seen my share of good and bad. Ignorant? I don't think so. Arrogant. Nope. In fact I would say I feel humbled by the luck/opportunity I've had. Good parents, good school (at least from 3-12, not in the US), good friends.MA1 converter

To have red-staters preach to me about morality and values is beyond the bounds of my patience, however. People from a culture that is based on church-fed and state-supported ignorance and illiteracy should be saying nothing to me until they fix their own houses. Look at the maps that break the election down by state IQs, state literacy rates, and slave-ownership histories. Look at the states that get more money from the government than they pay in, and see they're almost all red. You know, "hard-working" Americans. MA1 converter

I've earned my right to critique what I think needs critiquing, and to express my disgust at where this country is going. But hey, talk about war all you want. That's apparently all that matters. The moral, intellectual, and fiscal bankruptcy your boy George is "leading" us to is irrelevant, I guess.MA1 converter

In closing, here's a funny story. A friend of mine is stuck in the vast educational wasteland that is Texas. A couple months ago, Sunday morning, he's at a red light. Across the street is a church, parking lot full of cars, parents dropping their kids off at Sunday school. Light turns green, he starts going, and joins a line of three vehicles that have just left the church. about 1.5 miles down the road, two pickups pull into a parking lot on the left. Hey, when you have an hour to kill while your kid is getting all bibled up, where ELSE do you go but to a strip club?MA1 converter Posted by: Angelos on November 8, 2004 03:21 PM

What morals does Bush have, exactly, natt?MA1 converter Posted by: Angelos on November 8, 2004 03:26 PM

Wow, those people in the pickup trucks must have been incredibly terrible people. They profess to believe in God and yet also enjoy looking at pretty girls dancing without clothes in a legal establishment. What hypocrites, God wouldn't want them to enjoy physical beauty! I bet they have sex too... and enjoy it!MA1 converter

Its terrible, these red staters. What awful people they must be. What an incredibly useful anecdote, I now understand and agree with your views!MA1 converter Posted by: Keith on November 8, 2004 03:29 PM

The "moral values" vote is such a red herring it makes for a great opportunity to peek behind the curtain of the MSM, Republican and Democrat memes.MA1 converter

The MSM loves it for structural bias reasons. The Democrats love it as an easy excuse for their own failings.MA1 converter

It's the new "Southern Strategy" conventional wisdom.MA1 converter

The problem is that the discussion works more for Republicans than Democrats. It also makes the MSM look petty/shallow and stupid.MA1 converter Posted by: Tim on November 8, 2004 03:32 PM

Snark and twist all you want Keith, hypocricy is still hypocricy.MA1 converter

I'm going to guess that the priest (pastor/father, whatever) would consider the strippers sinners, as well as the patrons. And do you think the wives were aware of how their husbands killed their time? The kids? I'm guessing there are lies involved. MA1 converter

But hey, show up on Sunday, put a few bucks in the basket, and it all goes away, right? Nice foundation from which to preach morals.MA1 converter

If your values are "Do as I say, not as I do", well that explains George Bush's presidency.MA1 converter Posted by: Angelos on November 8, 2004 04:16 PM

To have red-staters preach to me about morality and values is beyond the bounds of my patience, however.MA1 converter

Who's preaching? The red staters or you? I suggest you go re-read your first and third post. The moral values meme has been debunked as the reason Bush was re-elected. It has no footing as a poll question according to Andew Kohut of the Pew Research Center (mentioned in a David Brooks column for the NYT). No one is preaching to you, so get off your own soap box.MA1 converter

I've earned my right to critique what I think needs critiquing, and to express my disgust at where this country is going.MA1 converter

Good for you! And so have I. I would begin by critiquing your attitude and the attitudes of many others towards those that disagree with you. Believe it or not, other people out there disagree with you on how we should run this country. We are not all dumb, we are not all part of the religious right, and we don't all live in the Red States. And right now, we are in the majority. And I don't care if you've been to over 50 countries, you're still ignorant that there are intelligent people with a different worldview than yours.MA1 converter Posted by: Mike on November 8, 2004 04:23 PM

Angelos,MA1 converter

Has it occurred to you that aggregating things by state is BS? The Repubs won by winning all the rural and many of the suburban areas. The Democrats won all the urban and a lesser number of suburban areas. This red state/blue state business is falsehood. Look at a county by county map for a clearer picture.MA1 converter

Tell me, have you looked at the typical urban resident/voter? The typical worker either (1) never sets foot in bluetown outside of ballgames or air travel because he also works in redville or (2) lives and votes in redville but works in the city in bluetown. The typical urban voter is either filthy and intelligent rich or dirt stupid poor. Guess which way that population is biased? Some rural areas may be unenlightened, but don't feed us a line that the urban voters are paragons of virtue and erudition. For every country yokel I'll raise you city trash.MA1 converter Posted by: Jeff the Baptist on November 8, 2004 07:18 PM

The only people that are crowing about "moral values" are the lefty pundits trying to figure out some way to absolve themselves for choosing such a pathetic candidate.MA1 converter Posted by: Soybomb on November 8, 2004 10:50 PM

What hypocrisy, Angelos? What is sinful about looking at beautiful women dance nude or semi-nude? Sounds to me like you are either intolerant or just making an argument about those you hate that you would not make about those that you do not hate.MA1 converter

We aren't talking prostitution or cheating on a spouse. Are you saying that all that go to Church beleive that women should not be viewed in a sexual fashion? Do you think that there'd be many Church-goers left if that were the case? MA1 converter

How about advertising? Perhaps I should scream offense as I walk through the mall and see a Victoria's Secret with its giant posters of women clad in the same fashion as those dancing in many gentlemen's clubs dace? How dare the Mall turn me into a hypocrite!MA1 converter

Sounds like you are exhibiting behavior that I'd expect you to attribute to inbred Red Staters.MA1 converter Posted by: Keith on November 8, 2004 11:22 PM

In this election Bush has advocated for win-lose whereas Kerry tried to advocate win-win. Naturally Bush won because of American xenophobia.MA1 converter Posted by: Jawahar Mundlapati on November 8, 2004 11:40 PM

Jawahar,MA1 converter

Aside from posting from Goldman Sachs, where are you from originally? India? Pakistan?
Not that it matters, except for you to call Americans xenophobic is truly laughable. We ARE the melting pot. Do you live in the U.S. now, or have you ever?

Angelos,MA1 converter

I was raised in the south, and thereafter lived in many major U.S. and also European cities. I must say that no matter where I've lived, in both red and blue states, including urban, suburban and rural settings.....you are someone we would universally recognize as being a redneck.MA1 converter

MA1 converter Posted by: Eileen on November 9, 2004 02:49 AM

It is clear that the Republicans are far better at creating the perception that they own the moral high ground. I find it strange that the Democrats are unable to counter their claims by pointing out that war, poverty, health insurance, etc... are moral issues.MA1 converter

www.motorcyclediaries.blogspot.com
MA1 converter Posted by: Pat on November 9, 2004 03:50 PM

I'm sorry you misundertood me. I did not call Americans as Xenophobic. I said "American Xenophobia". Please check http://www.ovalbooks.com/xeno/Americans.htmlMA1 converter Posted by: Jawahar Mundlapati on November 9, 2004 08:20 PM

Here's a female Michael Moore of the left--even looks like him. She really believes in the real moral high ground and only in violence by terrorists.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/09/terror/main654524.shtmlMA1 converter Posted by: Kat on November 9, 2004 09:25 PM

Thanks for the 'clue', Jawahar, and for the laugh, Kat.MA1 converter Posted by: Eileen on November 10, 2004 12:10 AM

I don't understand why yall attack the war on terrorism as if its an issue that doesn't matter. I voted for bush for a variety of reasons. The war IS the most important topic on the ballots and Kerry didn't have anything to challenge it with. Kerry spent to much time on the economy and its condition. The fact is that the economy will NEVER improve until the situation over there is resolved and the people feel safe again. I had my doubts about Bush's motives when he went into Iraq, but i decided to support him when a friend of my mine was killed in afghanistan. My friend wrote home two days before being killed and he described the hatred that many people there have for our society. It really has nothing to do with how much food we give them, they hate us for what we are. My friend said that if we aren't there fighting the war, they will bring it to us. Which is something we have already seen. So yea i voted Bush because of the war and I think i made the right choice. MA1 converter Posted by: chad on December 6, 2004 12:14 PM

I don't understand why yall attack the war on terrorism as if its an issue that doesn't matter. I voted for bush for a variety of reasons. The war IS the most important topic on the ballots and Kerry didn't have anything to challenge it with. Kerry spent to much time on the economy and its condition. The fact is that the economy will NEVER improve until the situation over there is resolved and the people feel safe again. I had my doubts about Bush's motives when he went into Iraq, but i decided to support him when a friend of my mine was killed in afghanistan. My friend wrote home two days before being killed and he described the hatred that many people there have for our society. It really has nothing to do with how much food we give them, they hate us for what we are. My friend said that if we aren't there fighting the war, they will bring it to us. Which is something we have already seen. So yea i voted Bush because of the war and I think i made the right choice. MA1 converter Posted by: chad on December 6, 2004 12:14 PM

I don't understand why yall attack the war on terrorism as if its an issue that doesn't matter. I voted for bush for a variety of reasons. The war IS the most important topic on the ballots and Kerry didn't have anything to challenge it with. Kerry spent to much time on the economy and its condition. The fact is that the economy will NEVER improve until the situation over there is resolved and the people feel safe again. I had my doubts about Bush's motives when he went into Iraq, but i decided to support him when a friend of my mine was killed in afghanistan. My friend wrote home two days before being killed and he described the hatred that many people there have for our society. It really has nothing to do with how much food we give them, they hate us for what we are. My friend said that if we aren't there fighting the war, they will bring it to us. Which is something we have already seen. So yea i voted Bush because of the war and I think i made the right choice. MA1 converter Posted by: chad on December 6, 2004 12:14 PM

I don't understand why yall attack the war on terrorism as if its an issue that doesn't matter. I voted for bush for a variety of reasons. The war IS the most important topic on the ballots and Kerry didn't have anything to challenge it with. Kerry spent to much time on the economy and its condition. The fact is that the economy will NEVER improve until the situation over there is resolved and the people feel safe again. I had my doubts about Bush's motives when he went into Iraq, but i decided to support him when a friend of my mine was killed in afghanistan. My friend wrote home two days before being killed and he described the hatred that many people there have for our society. It really has nothing to do with how much food we give them, they hate us for what we are. My friend said that if we aren't there fighting the war, they will bring it to us. Which is something we have already seen. So yea i voted Bush because of the war and I think i made the right choice. MA1 converter Posted by: chad on December 6, 2004 12:14 PM

I don't understand why yall attack the war on terrorism as if its an issue that doesn't matter. I voted for bush for a variety of reasons. The war IS the most important topic on the ballots and Kerry didn't have anything to challenge it with. Kerry spent to much time on the economy and its condition. The fact is that the economy will NEVER improve until the situation over there is resolved and the people feel safe again. I had my doubts about Bush's motives when he went into Iraq, but i decided to support him when a friend of my mine was killed in afghanistan. My friend wrote home two days before being killed and he described the hatred that many people there have for our society. It really has nothing to do with how much food we give them, they hate us for what we are. My friend said that if we aren't there fighting the war, they will bring it to us. Which is something we have already seen. So yea i voted Bush because of the war and I think i made the right choice. MA1 converter Posted by: chad on December 6, 2004 12:15 PM

I don't understand why yall attack the war on terrorism as if its an issue that doesn't matter. I voted for bush for a variety of reasons. The war IS the most important topic on the ballots and Kerry didn't have anything to challenge it with. Kerry spent to much time on the economy and its condition. The fact is that the economy will NEVER improve until the situation over there is resolved and the people feel safe again. I had my doubts about Bush's motives when he went into Iraq, but i decided to support him when a friend of my mine was killed in afghanistan. My friend wrote home two days before being killed and he described the hatred that many people there have for our society. It really has nothing to do with how much food we give them, they hate us for what we are. My friend said that if we aren't there fighting the war, they will bring it to us. Which is something we have already seen. So yea i voted Bush because of the war and I think i made the right choice. MA1 converter Posted by: chad on December 6, 2004 12:15 PM