BuzzMachine

'Could well be a backlash! But Democrats still have no solutions to anything whatsoever except for whatever is designed merely to assuage their own control needs alone, as they avidly attempt to produce a Hell on Earth. I'm far from over backlashing against Democrats and am no Christian, either. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: J. Peden on March 27, 2005 07:53 AM

Please would everyone stop assuming that the only people who are upset about the killing of Terri Shciavo are over the top and overboard Christian Fundamentalists.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I am pro-choice and I still don't think we should on a supposed chance comment ended someone's life. As others have said you wouldn't be able to buy a piece of property etc., without a contract. How in the world can you condemn someone to death without, at the very least, something in writing.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I'm utterly amazed at how glib other people are about ending another person's life. It's an utter lack of real reflection on most people's part that gives rise to such statements. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Liz Elder Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 08:04 AM

Liz: You're right. There are other issues -- such as whether we should have assisted suicide with drugs rather than forcing people who want to die to die this way. I'm not addressing those issues here. And you're right that those who are upset about Schiavo's death by no means fit one definition as is portrayed in media; I'm addressing just one group here. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Jeff Jarvis on March 27, 2005 08:35 AM

You are assuming she wanted to die and that is not the same as her husband wanting her to die. I'm not against removing life support, I'm against killing by starvation.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 27, 2005 08:43 AM

I just don’t think the religious right is frightening enough to spur any backlash. Get Free PS2 BIOS

They routinely loose in their efforts to put religion in the public square: ten commandment monuments are being easily scrubbed from even remote public property, there can be no whiff of religion in public schools, a tiny cross was easily forced off the LA seal, the “pledge of allegiance” may soon be banned because of “under God”, ect.Get Free PS2 BIOS

They rant against homosexual marriage, but their constitutional amendment will never pass and heterosexual marriage laws are slowly but surly being declared unconstitutional.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The left has been more successful in suppressing political speech than the right has been in suppressing pornography.Get Free PS2 BIOS

For every right wing nut job calling for the assassination of Judge Greer there is a left wing nut job rooting for the insurgents in Iraq.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Robert Brown on March 27, 2005 09:12 AM

I'm against anything or anybody telling a Mom and Dad who want to provide basic food and water to their child, that they are not allowed to. Get Free PS2 BIOS

WHAT on earth have we come to?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Lynn on March 27, 2005 09:16 AM

You are wrong about teaching of religion in schools--Christianity can not be mentioned but children are forced to dress up as muslims and write essays about Mohammed.
They get bonus points for fasting at Ramadam and suspended for saying Merry Christmas.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 27, 2005 09:18 AM

Roll away the stone, Jeff.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Again, you show that you're shooting from the hip, listening to gossip/blogs and trying to comment on a subject you obviously have not researched.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Assisted suicide is never about people starving themselves to death. Terri was not killed, nor was she euthanized. She was removed from extraneous support. She is not able to attain consciousness due to severe cerebral atrophy, therefore pain is not an issue. No need for a morphine drip.Get Free PS2 BIOS

You're exactly like MSM, glossing over the issues, pimping your underlying agenda.Get Free PS2 BIOS

DH - not a beauty parlor magazine writerGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Dan Herzlich on March 27, 2005 09:28 AM

Speaking of Easter, did you notice that google didn't change their logo today? At least not yet (it's 8.30 am here).Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: von on March 27, 2005 09:28 AM

Think your comments were right on. Those of us who are in the middle of the right/left wing fringes want the Government to let us live our lives as we see fit. Religious zealots turn people away with the way they think we should all act and react to every situation.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: GC on March 27, 2005 09:35 AM

Google has a new policy of not promoting goyishe holidays. And what kind of holiday is this anyway with the hardboiled eggs, bunnies, chocolate and hats?Get Free PS2 BIOS

At least with Purim, you can eat some pastry and go a little crazy. It's kinda like jewish halloween.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Dan Herzlich on March 27, 2005 09:37 AM

Liz Elder: I agree with you regarding sober relfection on ending someone's life. But for God's sake---the case has been in and out of courts for a decade. It has been soberly reflected upon in that sense. Are you equally amazed at the willingness of people to villify the husband, after following the case for a whole week or two? Neither "side" is behaving very decently. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Despite what people on the religious fringe say, no judges or Democrats have targeted this woman to die. It's much more complex than that but complexity gets lost in the hysterics here. The courts were asked to sort out a very messy and sad family issue and have worked to do so over the last decade---thankless work indeed. But everything becomes a shoutfest these days and an exercise in unhelpful hyperbole. Get Free PS2 BIOS

One predicition: the religious activists will not accept losing a legal or any other type of contest and they will seek revenge---doing so is in the nature of any extremist position, even extreme Christianty. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 09:44 AM

I think you're making far too much of the supposed "religious fringe", practically substituting their hysteria with hysteria of your own. Get Free PS2 BIOS

For one thing, many NON-religious people (including myself) oppose the removal of Terri's feeding tube. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Secondly, the reaction from the "religious fringe" (as you call it) to the Terri Schiavo case is hardly new, and hardly unexpected (to me at least). Besides, I seriously doubt most Americans looked at those reverends and pastors on TV and thought "Oh my God, these people are the spawn of the Devil. SAVE ME!".Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think a lot of people need to get a grip, and it's not just those folks on TV praying their little hearts out for Terri.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: MisterPundit on March 27, 2005 09:46 AM

Yes. I agree, if Terri were a Harp Seal all would be fine.Get Free PS2 BIOS

One Nation under God -- Next time you have a penny, look at it. Or better yet read the Declaration of Independence. There is no such thing as separation of churh and state, read the Constitution.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The Dems are splattered all over the political place because the stand for nothing. But they are ready and willing to spring at the next snail darter episode.Get Free PS2 BIOS

What a load of wishful thinking on your part.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: ds on March 27, 2005 09:57 AM

MisterPundit: the religious fringe's reaction is not unexepected at all. The Congress's and Executive's reaction to it, though, is unprecedented in 230 years since the country came into being. Get Free PS2 BIOS

This case is simply not partisan---80% of the people polled in this country famously oppose government's intervenition in the case and turning over the courts' decisions. 2/3 of those define themselves as evnagelicals. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Of those, many of them probably share your opinion about removing feeding from a dying woman. (I myself am very conflicted and not at all sure removing a woman's feeding tube is the right deicison but not sure it shouldn't be done either----according to some that makes me a murderer). But most people have drawn the line, it appears, when it comes to forcing their OPINION in the matter on everyone else---whether through Congress or by other means. Get Free PS2 BIOS

That's the issue that has emerged here. A small fringe that forever tries to force its opinions on the rest of us---coupled with a micro-managing congress and executive willing to rewrite the law when they don't get their way. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 09:59 AM

Hey ds: Better re-read (or actually, read) the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. Power comes from the people NOT from the divine. Get Free PS2 BIOS

And: "This idea that government was beholden to the people, that it had no other source of power, is still the newest, most unique idea in all the long history of man’s relation to man." A quote from that arch-liberal, Ronald Reagan. Get Free PS2 BIOS

He also said that the major issue in front of us was "whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Conservatism, of course, is not what it once was. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 10:06 AM

DS. This is getting tiresome. Yes, the Democrats are splattered all over the place. That is because they believe everyone can think for themselves and do not need to follow a strict party line. This is not a new idea. We have always (in my 67 years) believed in the power of the person, not the power of the party. Those who will not listen cannot understand.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: callahan on March 27, 2005 10:26 AM

Derek :Get Free PS2 BIOS

That's the issue that has emerged here. A small fringe that forever tries to force its opinions on the rest of usGet Free PS2 BIOS

A lot of groups, and fringes, both left and right, and on a whole range of topics, have been vocally voicing their opinion for centuries. This is hardly something that emerged here, and frankly I hope it doesn't stop here. Federal intervention in state matters also didn't start with Terri Schiavo, although I hope that particular activity stops here. Get Free PS2 BIOS

The battle for the public's ear is an ongoing one, and ultimately everyone serves a purpose, and everyone has a right to express an opinion. This "melting pot" of opinion is one of the things that makes America great. What would festivals and carnivals be like without those loons with their big posters calling on people to "Repent and be Saved"? It just won't be the same.Get Free PS2 BIOS

One thing I agree with is that it would be nice if the name-calling stops. I have been called a "fascist" and a "zealot" for wanting Terri's feeding tube re-inserted, and people who want it removed are "murderers". Enough.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: MisterPundit on March 27, 2005 10:28 AM

Like usual, Jeff, you miss the fanaticism on your own side. Felos, Schiavo's lawyer, is just as much a fundamentalist and a crusader on this issue as the *scary* religious right wing. It's just that the media loves bashing the religious right – they've been doing it my whole life to the extent that it has become, like so many of their other assumpations, so perfectly ordinary that it is accepted as reflexive. But there is very little press examination of the extremist nature of the right to die crowd. I'd like to see some examination of that. But since that is on the Press' wing, an outgrowth of the left, there is little questioning of it.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Meanwhile, we learn today from no less a liberal authority than the NYTimes that:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Mr. Schiavo has even rejected the Schindlers' request that their daughter be buried in Florida instead of cremated, which they object to as Catholics. He also refused their request to let Ms. Schiavo die in their home instead of at the hospice.

Mr. Schiavo's lawyer told reporters this week that the cremated remains would be buried at the Schiavo family plot outside Philadelphia, far from the parents who fought so intensely to win her back. Whether they can or will visit her gravesite could be the next subject of dispute.Get Free PS2 BIOS

This behavior, like so much that is questionable in this case, is not that of just a decent man with his nearly dead wife's best interests at heart. There's a littleness here that to my mind is very revealing, and not confined to Terri's funeral arrangements. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Steve Sailer makes the case that the Schindler's were simply out-lawyered from the get-go. And everything past that point has been unable to question the findings of fact. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Why should people disagree on this case less than other recent controversial cases? Get Free PS2 BIOS

And last of all, why do you and others on your side find it so objectionable that Americans are split on this life and death matter and are voicing that split vocably? Isn't that what we are free to do in a Democracy? If so, why does it offend you so much in this case? Because you agree with this decision? Get Free PS2 BIOS

The fact that you are smugly seeing this as a Christian fundamentalist right to life case versus everyone else who is a decent moderate means you've also been seduced by the media slant. But since it is a slant that has informed you for years, you are quite unable to see past it. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: alcibiades on March 27, 2005 10:34 AM

I think your title "Jumping the Sharks nest for Jesus" was profound! The question we need to ask ourselves is WHO are the Sharks? The Polls suggest according to the overwhelming majority of americans it is the Politicians. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: ED Beckmann on March 27, 2005 10:39 AM

If there was any example of the wisdom of our founding fathers in their establishment of the principle of The SEPERATION of Church and state this Terry Schiavo Affair is it!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: ED Beckmann on March 27, 2005 10:44 AM

Jeff — As long as the Democrats and/or left (if there is any longer a separation there) reflexively lump everyone with any sort of moral structure less amorphous than their own into the "religious right", the Republicans will do just fine. I'm a registered Democrat who hasn't set foot in a (Roman Catholic) church in years except to bury my father and out of respect for my mother and yet because I find the treatment of Terry Schiavo in this case profoundly disturbing, I find myself lumped in with snake handlers and (registered Democrat) Fred Phelps.Get Free PS2 BIOS

This seems to me to give the lie to any suggestion as well that the Republicans have a partisan agenda while the Democrats are acting out of some sort of principle here.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 10:46 AM

Yo alcibiades: you must be about ten years old, right? Because you seemed to have missed the press examination (one might say obsession) of the extremist nature of the right to die crowd as represented by Jack Kevorkian, who is currently in prison. Get Free PS2 BIOS

In this particualr case the scary right-to-die crowd is a straw man. No one is calling for Terri Schivao's death. They're asking to let the matter be sorted out in a legal way. Those who support Schivao's parents have declaed a war on a right-to-die bogeyman who hasn't shown up for the fight.

Also, there is no split on this matter, alcibiades. 80-plus percent of the country agrees that politicians should stay out of this and the Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube should not be reinserted. Where's the split there? But maybe you're as seduced by media's tenendency to turn everything----even the death of a brain-damaged woman----into a horse race between sides that don't exist. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 10:47 AM

Richard McEnroe. What is the Democratic Party's radical voiced opinion here. State it in a line or two and attrbute it to the villainous Dem who stated it. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Republicans control Congress. They chose this fight and they're not fighting liberals, they're fighting the judiciary. Now look up some of the justices, including those on the Supreme Court, who've repeatedly decided thi matter, to see what a mix of liberals/ conservatives Republicans/Democrats they are before you tell me they're all liberal activists. You're inventing a schism that doesn't exist.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 10:53 AM

Derek :Get Free PS2 BIOS

Yo alcibiades: you must be about ten years old, right?Get Free PS2 BIOS

How mature.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: MisterPundit on March 27, 2005 10:59 AM

And a quote from writer Dahlia Lithwick: “The rule of law in this country holds that this is a federalist system—in which private domestic matters are litigated in state, not federal courts. The rule of law has long provided that such domestic decisions are generally made by competent spouses, as opposed to parents, elected officials, popular referendum, or the demands of Randall Terry. The rule of law also requires a fundamental separation of powers—in which legislatures do not override final, binding court decisions solely because the outcome is not the one they like. The rule of law requires comity between state and federal courts—wherein each respects and upholds the jurisdiction and authority of the other. The rule of law requires that we look skeptically at legislation aimed at mucking around with just one life to the exclusion of any and all similarly situated individuals.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

But who cares?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 11:02 AM

Blaming the eeevangelicals isn't analysis, folks. It's groupthink. Notice virtually every blog has something on the eeevangelicals going too far.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The Blame Game against them started on the very morning of Nov. 3 when the John Kerry lost the election. Conservative christians will continue to be blamed until the Dems find another viable strategy for dividing the Right wing and regaining the White House. It's a calculated strategy. And presently, it's the only strategy the Left has, and everybody is playing along like lemmings.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Carlos on March 27, 2005 11:05 AM

Jeff's original post spoke about fringe elements of the religious right separating itself from the rest of America.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The most obvious case in point would be Randall Terry of Operation Save America, AKA Operation Rescue.Get Free PS2 BIOS

On 9/11/01 Terry's organization released the following press release:Get Free PS2 BIOS

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/press/press/third-final-warning.htmlGet Free PS2 BIOS

That's right, just like Ward Churchill, Terry's nutcase group believes America got its just desserts on 9/11. Churchill thinks it was because of America's expansive capitalism. Operation Save America thinks it was God's wrath because of abortion.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Ward Churchill has received a well-deserved public
thrashing for his vile remarks on our national
tragedy. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Why does Terry, spiritual advisor to the Schindler family, get a free pass???Get Free PS2 BIOS

Just wondering.Get Free PS2 BIOS

-- Dennis MosherGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Dennis Mosher on March 27, 2005 11:06 AM

What's an e-e-evangelical? Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 11:07 AM

Hello, it's Easter. Go to church now, pray, and learn to love your fellow man. Christ definitely would like that. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 27, 2005 11:09 AM

Good question and weell-asked, Dennis Mosher. Ralph Nader, that arch-conservative, supports Jeb Bush in the Schiavo case. But extrmists usually agree on methods (authoritarianism) regardless of their other disagreements. Go far enough right and you start hearing the same things from the loonies on the left.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 11:11 AM

Derek wrote:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Also, there is no split on this matter, alcibiades. 80-plus percent of the country agrees that politicians should stay out of this and the Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube should not be reinserted.

By all means, Derek, let us be a nation ruled by polls. Let the polls decide how we should all think and whether we should object or not. Get Free PS2 BIOS

80%! Wow! It's intolerable that anyone should even speak up against those numbers!!! Gee, I'd never want to go against a poll!Get Free PS2 BIOS

Meanwhile, is it just the slightest bit possible that the pollsters asked leading questions in this case? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Huh. Who would it have thought of that? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Democrat pollster Pat Caddell, for one.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Be careful, though, it's a transcript from *evil* Fox news. Why even just reading it might rot your brain and you'll end up as brain dead as Terri Schiavo and the Republicans, to paraphrase your fearless leader, Howard Dean. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: alcibiades on March 27, 2005 11:17 AM

Why does Terry, spiritual advisor to the Schindler family, get a free pass???Get Free PS2 BIOS

Gotta love how people find the biggest loon in the crowd, and make him/her the poster boy for that crowd. Since Ward Churchill opposes the war in Iraq, shouldn't he then become the de-facto "face" of the anti-war movement? That's what I thought.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: MisterPundit on March 27, 2005 11:30 AM

Alcibiades,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here's a link that shows the exact wording of all the major polls regarding the Schiavo case.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think the wording of the questions is neutral. Where are the "leading questions" you speak of?Get Free PS2 BIOS

http://www.pollingreport.com/news.htmGet Free PS2 BIOS

As far as poll accuracy is concerned, they were amazingly accurate in in predicting our recent presidential election.Get Free PS2 BIOS

-- Dennis MosherGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Dennis Mosher on March 27, 2005 11:36 AM

May Terri be sped along on her journey home. Fifteen years is enough wrangling over a brain dead person. Now is time for all extremes to cool it and pray for Terri's soul. I had to pull the plug on my brain dead son, I'd do it again if faced with that choice.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ed Poinsett on March 27, 2005 11:42 AM

MisterPundit — That's a traditional dodge, like when the Prop 187 opponents at Cal State Northridge told the Prop 187 supporters they couldn't speak at their debate and then imported David Duke to present the proponents' case "for" them.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 11:45 AM

Jeff - thanks for writing about this without a kneejerk slam on the Dems.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Oliver on March 27, 2005 11:55 AM

Mr. Pundit,Get Free PS2 BIOS

A person can make a principled argument for or against the Iraq war, just as people of good will can disagree on the issues in the Schiavo case.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The distinction between Churchill and Terry is that Churchill was not a leader or high-profile spokesman for the anti-war movement. Churchill is is actually pro-war, for the other side. I don't see a lot of anti-war activists rushing to have their pictures taken next to him.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Terry, on the other hand, stands next to the Schindlers at all their press conferences, he shouts to the TV camera "there will be hell to pay" if Terri dies, and issues ultimatums to Jeb Bush. He is front and center in the midde of the media storm.Get Free PS2 BIOS

In fairness, I think it would be proper for someone in the media to ask Terry if he agrees with his organization's official press release that 9/11 was just punishment to America.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Is that asking so much?Get Free PS2 BIOS

-- Dennis MosherGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Dennis Mosher on March 27, 2005 11:56 AM

Alcibiades, speak against the polls all you want. No problem and no one said we should be ruled by polls. But the country is not split on this matter. (alcibiades still seems to never have heard of the media focus on right-to-die issue a few years back. And can't seem to distingusih opinion from statute. Ignorance truly is bliss.)Get Free PS2 BIOS

Dennis Mosher once again is dead on. And MisterPunidt makes a sort-of point---though in fairnes, Dennis Mosher doesn't say Ward Churchill and Randall Terry are representative of anything---he just points out how similar the fringe, right and left, really are to each other. Mr. P's is a typical dodge, as mcenroe points out. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 27, 2005 12:00 PM

Well, I would like someone to discuss the anti-religious fanatics who are breaking the law and pushing euthanasia. We know that Felos is a pro-Euthanasia Activist and to pretend he has no agenda is just horse pucky.
Why is an agenda only wrong when you support pro life? Attorney George Felos, who represents Michael Schiavo, states on his web site that he is affiliated with the Hemlock Society. Earlier this month, Mr. Felos admitted to the Lakeland Ledger that "tens of thousands" of dehydration deaths have occurred over the years. The pro-euthanasia group End-of-Life Choices, formerly the Hemlock Society, has started a $60,000 ad campaign in Florida, using the plight of Terri Schiavo as a way to make its case and expand its membership. And you accuse the right of using Terri for politics? Why doesn't the media provide these details. This isn't Felos first such case--he makes a living trying to get peoples' lives ended.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 27, 2005 12:17 PM

The distinction between Churchill and Terry is that Churchill was not a leader or high-profile spokesman for the anti-war movement.Get Free PS2 BIOS

IMO, Churchill has a higher profile than Terry, but regardless, Randall Terry does not speak for me, but people like you are trying to make it that way. That is unfair, and insulting to those of us who think Randall Terry is a nutjob, yet agree with him that removing the feeding tube is wrong. It's not my fault he's latched onto this issue.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Mr. P's is a typical dodge, as mcenroe points out.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Mmm... I thoought McEnroe was actually agreeing with me.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: MisterPundit on March 27, 2005 12:17 PM

"Please would everyone stop assuming that the only people who are upset about the killing of Terri Shciavo are over the top and overboard Christian Fundamentalists."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Thank you, Liz Elder. Of all the infuriating rhetoric in this saga, (and there's alot to choose from!), that's the accusation which really gets my goat.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And I'm not even Christian! I can't imagine how rank and file Christians must feel, those who I have to assume can distance their political thinking from their religiosity. It must be maddening.Get Free PS2 BIOS

ds: "Yes. I agree, if Terri were a Harp Seal all would be fine."Get Free PS2 BIOS

All joking about "vegetables" aside, if Terri were that endangered species of onion, (can't remember what it's called) she would have had immediate relief from the courts pending a federal review.Get Free PS2 BIOS

What a country.Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Backlash"? Yeah, I think there might be some, but I'm not sure I buy Mr Jarvis' analysis. It sounds too familiar:Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Christians? Hide the kids-- the Christians are coming! If they take over, who knows what might happen! Why... kids might even be allowed to pray in school. Or something equally fascist."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here's my backlash: it's time to break the filibuster.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: zeppenwolf on March 27, 2005 12:24 PM

Lynn: WHAT on earth have we come to?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Just a minor point of correction. We have not "come to" this point. This is where we have always been. The law on this is long standing and well established. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat: You are wrong about teaching of religion in schools--Christianity can not be mentioned but children are forced to dress up as muslims and write essays about Mohammed. They get bonus points for fasting at Ramadam and suspended for saying Merry Christmas.Get Free PS2 BIOS

LOL!!! You are kidding, right. Otherwise, I assume you can provide some documentary evidence of these claims?Get Free PS2 BIOS

von: Speaking of Easter, did you notice that google didn't change their logo today? At least not yet Get Free PS2 BIOS

So, what's your point? I suppose now you want to dictate how private companies behave?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: -asx- on March 27, 2005 12:33 PM

asx — The school in question was here in California. The students were required to go on a simulated "Ramadan pilgrimage" and write the essays after another student complained about restrictions her expression of her Christian beliefs.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 12:49 PM

MisterPundit — I was agreeing with you. Before we tar the Schindler's with Randall Terry's brush, let's ask where he was for the first 15 years when they weren't getting the same air time?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Oh, and as to how the Democrats are responding to this...Get Free PS2 BIOS

As always. I expect an official silence from the Democratic Party until Terri is dead, cremated and the evidence gone. Then they will pull a Pelosi, sniffing that they could have buried her for a lot less money...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 12:53 PM

I agree with Liz Elder - you have made this a religious issue when it is fundamentally about personal autonomy of the voiceless and due process. (I admit some of Terri's defenders have played the religion card too, to their detriment.) The fact that courts have repeatedly taken Michael Schiavo's word that Terri casually said a couple times that she wouldn't want to remain in some ill-defined state of incapacitation has removed what small shred of faith I had in the judicial system. Please don't assume just because you see a certain group of people line up on one side, that their common traits are what drive their views - and their motivations are common to everyone with similar views. Such an old media view.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Greg on March 27, 2005 01:02 PM

Oliver, I'll do Jeff's job for him. The Democrats deserve an attack here. I speak as a moderate swing voter...Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here's an issue that the Rs were 100% united in opposition to an issue where they only had 20% support. What we have here is a big watermelon slow pitch, just hanging there.Get Free PS2 BIOS

So... where's the opposition party?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Didn't show up yet!Get Free PS2 BIOS

The Rs are STUCK here, y'see, their very base of support is acting like total morons. Wouldn't a few well-placed words about respect for rule of law get the attention of thoughtful moderates? Because the Rs have nothing whatsoever to say in return. They can't, they are STUCK unless they show Pat Robertson and Randall Terry the back of their hand, which they will never ever do.Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's like the Ds don't know how to operate as an opposition party. The secret is to find the issues that REALLY resonate and OWN them. When I say REALLY resonate, I don't mean the ones that resonate for the party faithful, those are known lower issues. I mean the issues that get 80% support in unbiased polls. Don't force the issues to be issues, steal the ones that appear.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Force the opposition to loudly declare its undivided support for the 20% position. Then you win.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Undertoad on March 27, 2005 01:03 PM

"I hope there will be impact on the press: The press repeated again and again, 24 hours a day, that we are divided on this issue but, in fact, we are not: Most people backed Terri Schaivo's husband's efforts to do what he believed she wanted."

Jeff, no one knows better than you that the press has a vested interest in creating conflict -- stability doesn't sell papers. There has been some discussion this weekend about these polls -- the wording of the questions, the politcal make-up of the respondents and how that effected the outcome, but those questions aside -- you claim the press "got that wrong" with regards to the people's objections to Congressional intervention. They did? Where? I have yet to find one piece of reporting that shows that. Where is this "running commentary?" Who misreported the polls findings? If we're gonna fact check their ass, we gotta know who they are. Posted by: Duneview on March 27, 2005 01:05 PM

asx — The school in question was here in California. The students were required to go on a simulated "Ramadan pilgrimage" and write the essays after another student complained about restrictions her expression of her Christian beliefs.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Let's not confuse learning about other cultures, a legitmate function of the schools, with schools controlled by Islamists and indoctrinating children into Islam. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: -asx- on March 27, 2005 01:10 PM

What is the official Democratic Party position on this?Get Free PS2 BIOS

There is no mention of it on the front page of the DNC website.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Many Dem Congressfolk like Cynthia McKinney don't even show Congress as having even been in session.Get Free PS2 BIOS

But here are the next three Democratic Congressfolks' home pages I visitedGet Free PS2 BIOS

Nancy Pelosi —Get Free PS2 BIOS

"The actions of the majority in attempting to pass constitutionally-dubious legislation are highly irregular and an improper use of legislative authority." That damn majority again. Didn't Ted Kennedy warn us about that?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Jim Davis (D-CA) — “Congress’ actions today are a clear threat to our democracy." Because, and I address this to you as well, Jeff, of course all these theocrats are going to vote for things they know 80% of their constituents oppose. After all, what could possibly happen?Get Free PS2 BIOS

David Wu (D-OR) —Get Free PS2 BIOS

"The Republican leadership has transformed a profound tragedy for the Schiavo family into a tragedy for the entire nation. " And here we thought it took a village...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 01:35 PM

Greg: "you have made this a religious issue when it is fundamentally about personal autonomy of the voiceless and due process. (I admit some of Terri's defenders have played the religion card too, to their detriment."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Zeppenwolf: "Christians? Hide the kids-- the Christians are coming! If they take over, who knows what might happen! Why... kids might even be allowed to pray in school. Or something equally fascist."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Liz Elder: "Please would everyone stop assuming that the only people who are upset about the killing of Terri Shciavo are over the top and overboard Christian Fundamentalists."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Exactly. Being non-religious myself, I'm amazed at the growing emotional anger toward religion in America. Anti-religion has very nearly become it's own dark "religion".Get Free PS2 BIOS

The "IT'S THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT" trope sits there, just under the surface, ready to boil out with name calling and worse at every public forum, from lost Presidental elections to Terri Schiavo.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 01:41 PM

ENOUGH!Get Free PS2 BIOS

Terri is dying and will soon be dead.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The Left has defeated George Bush and those evil people who believe in God.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Rejoice in your victory that is her death.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Harry O on March 27, 2005 01:42 PM

richard mcenroe claims to be a registered Democrat and then posts absolutely nothing on any subject except criticisms of the Democrats and toes the line of the far right part of the Republican party on all issues. Notice how careful he was to phrase it "registered Democrat". I think he's one of those who registered that way in order to play some games in primaries or for some other reason because it's quite obvious that he is a Republican in his views as reflected by ever post of his I've read.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat will never change and be anything but someone who posts the views of the far right.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Greg, could you at least study the issue some before stating a falsehood? I am giving the benefit of the doubt here. The court had Michael's word and the word of his sister and brother, Mrs. Schiavo's in-laws. Also, you make a comment about an "ill-defined state of incapacitation". Again, are you doing it on purpose? Every neurologist who has examined Terri Schiavo who wasn't on the Schindler's "side" to begin with has found that Terri Schiavo is in fact in a permanent vegetative state, or PVS. The CT scans show more than enough tissue atrophy to guarantee that she is not going to recover. The EEGs show no activity other than that of her brain stem. None. There has never been a recorded instance of someone in this condition for more than two years recovering. What does it take? Have you read the court decisions? Have you read the report of the guardian ad litem appointed by Governor Bush? I have. It's a difficult situation and it is sad beyond words that any family would be in this situation. But for congress to intervene and do it in the way that they did is disgusting and I don't approve of the Democrats who went along either.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Jim S on March 27, 2005 01:47 PM

asx:
A search on Yahoo, "teaching islam in public schools", brought up many references.
It takes a special willful blindness to consider THIS to be nothing more than "learning about other cultures". Read the entire thing, all the way down to where students are taught to say Allahu akbar ("God is great.") Get Free PS2 BIOS

"In classrooms across the United States students adopt a Muslim name "Abdallah," "Karima," etc.), they must wear Islamic clothing. For girls this means a long-sleeved dress and the head covered by a scarf. Students unwilling to wear Islamic clothes must sit mutely in the back of the class, seemingly punished for remaining Westerners.
Interaction calls for many Islamic activities: taking off shoes, washing hands, sitting on prayer rugs, and practicing Arabic calligraphy.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Students study the Koran, recite from it, design a title page for it, and write verses of it on a banner. They act out Islam's Five Pillars of Faith, including giving zakat (Islamic alms) and going on the pilgrimage to Mecca. They also build a replica of the "sacred Kaaba" in Mecca or another holy building.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Seventh graders adopt the speech of pious believers, greeting each other with "assalam aleikoom, fellow Muslims" and using phrases such as "God willing" and "Allah has power over all things."Get Free PS2 BIOS

They learn the militant Islamic war-cry, Allahu akbar ("God is great.") Get Free PS2 BIOS

HERE'S MORE:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25997Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 02:04 PM

asx--then why can't we learn about Christianity. The incident I refer to made kids fast for bonus points, dress up as muslims, and mullahs came in and recited prayers over the kids. Meanwhile a little girl in kindergarten was admonished and told she would be suspended if she ever thanked Jesus for her food during lunch, while prayer rooms are built for muslims. Textbooks are changed to include the most assinine crap.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/shroder/040413
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/592420/posts
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040416-120208-4455r.htm
I can't find link for following --I'm sorry and I'm too busy cooking. But if you need convincing, research for yourself. Have a Blessed Easter.
In a public school in St. Louis, a teacher spotted the suspect, fourth-grader Raymond Raines, bowing his head in prayer before lunch. The teacher stormed to Raymond's table, ordered him to stop immediately and sent him to the principal's office. The principal informed the young malefactor that praying was not allowed in school. When Raymond was again caught praying before meals on three separate occasions, he was segregated from other students, ridiculed in front of his classmates, and finally sentenced to a week's detention.
Before snack time in her kindergarten class in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., little Kayla Broadus held hands with two of her classmates and recited this prayer: "God is good, God is great, thank you, God, for my food." The alert teacher pounced on Kayla, severely reprimanded her, and reported her to the school administration. In short order, the principal sent a sternly worded letter to Kayla's parents advising them that Kayla was not allowed to pray in school, aloud or with others.
The school board then issued a triumphant press release crowing about its victory over a kindergartner praying before snack time. Thus was creeping theocracy in Saratoga Springs stopped dead in its tracks! Kayla's mother brought a lawsuit, winning Kayla the right to pray out loud. But she was still prohibited from holding hands with others while she prayed. Hearing the G-word in kindergarten might interfere with the school's efforts to teach proper sexual techniques in the first grade.
Thanks to the vigilance of an alert teacher at Lynn Lucas Middle School outside of Houston, two sisters carrying Bibles were prevented from bringing their vile material into a classroom. The teacher stopped the students at the classroom door and marched them to the principal's office. (Maybe it was just the sight of public school students carrying a book of any kind that set off alarm bells.) The sisters' mother was called and warned that the school intended to report her to Child Protective Services. When the mother arrived, the teacher threw the Bibles in the wastebasket, shouting, "This is garbage!"
In another display of tolerance at Lynn Lucas Middle School, school administrators snatched three students' books with covers displaying the Ten Commandments, ripped the covers off, threw them in the garbage, and told the students that the Ten Commandments constituted "hate speech." (Also, it would be insensitive to expose the Ten Commandments to students who had never been taught to count to 10.)
After the massacre at Columbine High School, students and families were invited to paint tiles above student lockers. The school district had taken all reasonable precautions, immediately deploying an army of secular "grief counselors" with teddy bears to descend on the school after the attack. Nonetheless, some students painted their tiles with "objectionable" messages, such as: "4/20/99: Jesus Wept" and "God Is Love." This would not stand: The school removed 90 tiles with offending religious messages.
A federal court upheld the school's censorship of the religious tiles. Of course, Columbine school officials had earned a measure of deference after having inculcated such a fine sense of morality in their students that two boys could walk into school one day and stage a bloody massacre. You don't argue with a track record like that.
Not all mentions of religion constitute "hate speech." In Tupelo, Miss., school administrators methodically purged all Christmas carols of any religious content – and then led the children in a chant of: "Celebrate Kwanzaa!" At Pattison Elementary school in Katy, Texas, Christmas songs are banned, but students are threatened with grade reductions for refusing to sing songs celebrating other religious faiths.
In New York City, the chancellor of the Department of Education prohibited the display of Nativity scenes in public schools, while expressly allowing the Jewish menorah and the Islamic star and crescent to be displayed. Some would say that was overkill inasmuch as New York City is already the home of the world's largest public display built in commemoration of Islam: Ground Zero.
Between issuing laws prohibiting discrimination against transgendered individuals and running up a $38 billion deficit, the California Legislature mandated a three-week immersion course in Islam for all seventh-graders. A "crash course" in Islam, you might call it, if that weren't so ironic. Students are required to adopt Muslim names, plan a trip to Mecca, play a jihad game, pray to "Allah, the Compassionate" and to chant "Praise to Allah! Lord of Creation!" They are encouraged to dress in Muslim garb. Students are discouraged, however, from stoning girls at the school dances, abusing their "Jew" math teachers or blowing up their classmates.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 27, 2005 02:06 PM

"This behavior, like so much that is questionable in this case, is not that of just a decent man with his nearly dead wife's best interests at heart. There's a littleness here that to my mind is very revealing, and not confined to Terri's funeral arrangements."Get Free PS2 BIOS

This is the smallminded hysteria that troubles so many of us. Many families fight over burial arrangements. But suddenly, just because its a cause-celeb, this gets transformed into a deep indictment of one side of the argument.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: plunge on March 27, 2005 02:16 PM

Richard Mcenroe. Are you incapable of expressing your beliefs without a slam to the body of the Democratic Party?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: callahan on March 27, 2005 02:22 PM

POEM FOR TERRIGet Free PS2 BIOS

I will never marry Terri,
For she is already wed.
But I'm hoping I can carry
Her metal coffin when she's dead,Get Free PS2 BIOS

For to do so would please Jesus,
He who gives us breath and life.
He strives so very hard to please us!
Though she cannot be my wife,Get Free PS2 BIOS

We share a bond of Christian duty,
One transcending space and time.
No, I'll never stroke her booty,
And she'll never read this rhyme,Get Free PS2 BIOS

But in a year or two, or seven,
When my time on Earth has passed,
I'll meet sweet Terri up in Heaven,
And I'll kiss her face at last. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Copyright 2005 by Bibby Bibibbian. All rights reserved. This poem may be disseminated as long as it is not modified, and if I am given credit for its authorship. Praise Jesus Christ!
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Bibby on March 27, 2005 02:26 PM

Callahan — That was a response to a direct question.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Jim S — My voter registration is and always has been a matter of public record. I voted for Carter, and even Clinton (once). I criticize the Democratic party because I feel it desperately needs it. The easier thing to do would be to join the Republican Party, though I find myself at odds with many of its positions. Get Free PS2 BIOS

But the sad fact is, I and others like me stay in the Democratic party because it is sadly lacking in diversity of opinion. I offer as proof of that the obsession, reflected even in this thread, with the Republican party's always-imminent "self-destruction." The idea that a political party can survive debate and dissent within its ranks is utterly alien to the Democratic party as currently structured. Witness the ostracism of Zell Miller and the current campaign to throw Joe Leiberman out of his seat. This might be tolerable and/or survivable if the position the Democrats are defending at all costs wasn't the one staked out by the Kos Kids and DU. It usually takes what, a week before a talking point there comes out of the mouth of Dean or Pelosi or Boxer?Get Free PS2 BIOS

The other sad fact is, the Democrats have become utterly tone deaf when it comes to judging how their message will be received. Kerry backers march with ANSWER and the Spartacist League and don't understand why this would put people off. Hurley, the head of Vietnam Vets for Kerry, answers criticism of Kerry's 1971 atrocity testimony with more unsubstantiated claims of atrocities. Terri Schiavo fills the headlines and Howard Dean makes jokes about "brain dead Republicans". Do you think this makes the Democrats more credible and attractive? Do you think dissing Christians on Easter Sunday is a selling point?Get Free PS2 BIOS

If the Democrats think the Republicans are going to self-destruct over Terri Schiavo, that's dangerous wishful thinking. If the Democrats think they can make Terri Schiavo an election issue, that would be a disaster.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 03:10 PM

plunge, instead of using an out of context quote, how about including what it refers to? When you do, the "littleness" of Mr Schiavo is made clear. He seems to use Catholicism only when convenient, like claiming he can't get a divorce. (I believe he also refused to allow communion for Terri - no moisture or nourishment allowed, ya know.)Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here's the relevant section:
NYT)"Mr. Schiavo has even rejected the Schindlers' request that their daughter be buried in Florida instead of cremated, which they object to as Catholics. He also refused their request to let Ms. Schiavo die in their home instead of at the hospice.
Mr. Schiavo's lawyer told reporters this week that the cremated remains would be buried at the Schiavo family plot outside Philadelphia, far from the parents who fought so intensely to win her back. Whether they can or will visit her gravesite could be the next subject of dispute."Get Free PS2 BIOS

(albiciades)"This behavior, like so much that is questionable in this case, is not that of just a decent man with his nearly dead wife's best interests at heart. There's a littleness here that to my mind is very revealing, and not confined to Terri's funeral arrangements." Get Free PS2 BIOS

Obviously, when the entire quote is read, it's a calmly given opinion, not "smallminded hysteria".
You've jumped the tracks, and it might help if you look up NON-SEQUITUR before your next plunge.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 03:19 PM

cat dancing-Get Free PS2 BIOS

I'm sorry, as a Christian, I don't see what is so dangerous about children saying, "God is great", "God willing", or "Peace be upon you."
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 03:23 PM

"Please would everyone stop assuming that the only people who are upset about the killing of Terri Shciavo are over the top and overboard Christian Fundamentalists. I am pro-choice and I still don't think we should on a supposed chance comment ended someone's life."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Hear hear. Jeff, you are talking like a demogogue.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The Terri Schiavo case is about disability civil rights, and protecting individual rights in general. This is obscured by the Christian Right rhetoric, and the responses to it, that you have a knee-jerk reaction to.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Yehudit on March 27, 2005 03:33 PM

richard mcenroe, Get Free PS2 BIOS

Given that every post of yours that I've seen toes the Republican line somehow I don't give much credibility to your claim that you disagree with much of Republican policy.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Jim S on March 27, 2005 03:35 PM

"If there was any example of the wisdom of our founding fathers in their establishment of the principle of The SEPERATION of Church and state this Terry Schiavo Affair is it!"Get Free PS2 BIOS

It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with all Americans having due process under the law, including people with severe disabilities. We don't sentence people to death on the hearsay of one person with a glaring conflict of interest. Part of civil liberties is the right to worship as one chooses, which also means that you don't deny this person her religious rights either (refusing her Catholic rites, as Michael Schiavo has done).Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Yehudit on March 27, 2005 03:40 PM

Dan
Oh, come on, are you that naive?
It's because they're being forced to learn those phrases and other religious verses from the Koran, even though the Bible is banned from the classroom. How does that make you feel "as a Christian"?
Go back and look into the entire story about what else they're forced to do. It's not just learning about other "cultures". Check out several sources instead of making an assessment on the first thing that pops into your head.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 03:55 PM

I'm against anything or anybody telling a Mom and Dad who want to provide basic food and water to their child, that they are not allowed to. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Did anyone catch that amazing little piece of propaganda earlier in the thread? I almost admire the author for thinking it up.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Jay Rosen on March 27, 2005 03:56 PM

No Christian has a problem with kids saying God willing,(Christians aren't allowed to, though) but I have a huge problem with kids saying prayers that mean they accept islam.
Two good articles by Robert Spencer:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003511.php
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001814.php
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 27, 2005 04:02 PM

Thanks for the well thought out and intelligent responses. Part of my "anger" at this whole situation is the lack of thought and feeling so many people have expressed during this ordeal for our country.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I hate over the top hysteria such as the reaction to the action taken by the Congress and the Senate. I think for many, good, compassionate people, the idea of a person being put to death because of something she probably didn't say is horrifying. I have heard several well respected neurologist say that there were other tests that should have been done to really tell what is going on with Terri. The fact that her husband did absolutely and practically nothing past the first tests adds to my suspicion of his motives.Wouldn't you do everything possible to be absolutely sure. I think once he had committed himself to this course of action whether there was money or not left he couldn't turn back. Get Free PS2 BIOS

As to no Communion do you think they want to take the chance that Terri might be able to swallow it. It might give her family more ammunition.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Did you know that Judge Greer was responsible for the death of another woman. I don't remember the year. This particular person went to him for an order of protection. Because she didn't list the ways in which her husband had been abusive to her...Judge Greer denied her the order. Her husband stabbed her to death a week later. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think it is more frightening that one single man can have the power of life or death over someone than that the Congress wanted to rescue a life. Please let's be a little less cynical. There are many good and compassionate people who care about a single life. Being a politician doesn't always kill your soul. The horror of Terri Shiavo's fate, made so because she is totally helpless, is over whelming for many good people. Get Free PS2 BIOS

The idea that Judges with all their power stick together and very reluctanly over turn another's ruling is disturbing.The police you can understand not wanting to betray each other.They face life and death everyday (I'm not condoning it). Judge's who have your lives in their hands are another thing.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 04:21 PM

JimS — Which should tell you that either 1) on the issues where I don't comment here, I agree with the house position, 2) You don't know my positions that haven't been discussed here or 3) You would rather exclude a voice than consider a voice.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 04:36 PM

Yes, Jay, I saw that, and of course the Schindlers are wrong. Terri is clearly Michael's property since the marriage and he is free to dispose of her as he sees fit.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: richard mcenroe on March 27, 2005 04:37 PM

Liz Elder:Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Did you know that Judge Greer was responsible for the death of another woman."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Sorry, but that is the role a judge has. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Forgive me, but there was a 'born again Christian' lady put to death in Texas whose death the governor, need we say who, refused to prevent by pardoning. And in 1999 the same nwsw made it Texas state policy when funds ran out to cut off the sustenance. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I truly am sorry Terri Schiavo lost her life. It was 15 years ago. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Please love each other.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 27, 2005 04:47 PM

Cat Dancing-
First of all, I've been studying religion for the better part of 20 years, so don't accuse me of saying the 'first thing that pops into (my) head'. You are the one who said "God is great" is a war cry, which is both highly innacurate and offensive (it is the Muslim call to prayer).
Yes, I have problems with certain religious texts being used in schools and others being banned (I do think that there is a place for the Bible in school), but you have to give me a more reliable source than World Net Daily, which is no better than MoveOn.org or MichaelMoore.com.
I think that more diversity of religious teaching is important (actually necessary) in this world, which means that I believe the Bible, the Qur'an, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita etc, should be taught.
Remember, Muhammed taught that Christians and Jews are 'people of the book' and are deserving of the same respect as Muslims. He even offered his mosques to Jews and Christians who were travelling through town so they would have a place of worship.
To paraphrase Woody Allen, if Muhammed saw what was happening today in the name of Islam, he would never stop throwing up.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 04:54 PM

Ruth-
Thank you for holding up the Christian message on this most holy of days.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 04:58 PM

Great post, Jeff. Thanks for your well-written take on the possible implications of this case.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Amy on March 27, 2005 05:17 PM

Dan
AllGet Free PS2 BIOS

Death is the beginning of life, according to Christian and other belief. May all of us have the joy of heaven.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The purpose of all religions is the good will and love of its people.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 27, 2005 05:31 PM

I agree with Gregg wholeheartedly.I also think that since this has been traumatic for so many there should be a really through discussion of all the facts.Get Free PS2 BIOS

You might say you wouldn't want to be kept alive on life support, but when it came to forfeiting your life that's another thing altogether. Get Free PS2 BIOS

When it comes to giving a life or death decision to your spouse...well am I lving in the 21st century with all the many unhappy and abusive marriages that end in divorce or the 19th century where marraige had a bit more substance and meaning.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 05:31 PM

I agree with Gregg wholeheartedly.I also think that since this has been traumatic for so many there should be a really through discussion of all the facts.Get Free PS2 BIOS

You might say you wouldn't want to be kept alive on life support, but when it came to forfeiting your life that's another thing altogether. Get Free PS2 BIOS

When it comes to giving a life or death decision to your spouse...well am I lving in the 21st century with all the many unhappy and abusive marriages that end in divorce or the 19th century where marraige had a bit more substance and meaning.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 05:32 PM

Here's a more honest source about what people are going on about regarding "teaching Islam."Get Free PS2 BIOS

http://www.snopes.com/religion/islam.htmGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: plunge on March 27, 2005 05:34 PM

Ruth-
You are mixing Bush bashing, religion and pardons for convicted killers. Let us rejoice that she was "born again". Not one thing does that have to do with this particular case or anyone's actions.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: owl on March 27, 2005 05:43 PM

dan
If you don't like the source I gave, quite a few other sources been posted on this thread by posters. I also said you can go to Yahoo and search on "teaching islam in public schools" and see that there are numerous sites with the information.
I don't know you, but I can't imagine any "Christian" being OK with excluding the Bible in favor of the Koran or forcibly teaching our children Islam. I'll just say I have my doubts about your claim. You sound more like a classic agenda driven LLL apologist.Get Free PS2 BIOS

P.S. You're also wrong about "Allahu Akabar".
From Wikipedia: This phrase is recited by Muslims in numerous different situations; for example when they are happy or wish to express approval, when an animal is slaughtered in a halaal fashion, when they want to praise a speaker, and during battles.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 06:05 PM

Cat Dancing-
Re-read what I wrote. I said that there IS place in school for the Bible and that I think it SHOULD be taught as well as the Qu'ran etc. Get Free PS2 BIOS

And how dare you doubt my faith?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 06:10 PM

owl,
the point is that to "err on the side of life" would (if really beleived) mean opposing the death penalty given the constant threat of killing an innocent person. This has been politicised and those politicising it deserve to be bashed.
But my thoughts go out to the entire family of Terri - this must be hell for them as the final hours count down.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: franky on March 27, 2005 06:11 PM

Jeff-Get Free PS2 BIOS

Disappointed. I agree it has turned into a great stick to beat up Republicans with, but it is hard to discuss a complex issue when one side paints the other into a nice tidy box. Get Free PS2 BIOS

You placed us into "religious right, anti-secular, politically greedy, shrill, self-righeous, anti-abortion, double dangerous abstinence promoters, that the MSM supports, even though we are not mainstream and support Religious Zealot Fringes".Get Free PS2 BIOS

Flaws with your box. Believe in religious tolerance, but seldom go to church. Didn't vote Bush Sr because MSM convinced me about those Religous Zealots at convention. Thank you MSM but will search and sort for myself now. Hate McC-F. PRO-CHOICE!!! Okay, admit to shrill, self-righteous and politically greedy. But will put that Republican Religous Protest up against your Democrat Anti-Bush/America Marches. Not as many Hitler faces, X's on soldiers, or flags burning.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Millions face turning off the machines, usually done with families agreeing about a living will, a terminally ill person, a very old, very ill person after a stroke, etc, or a loved one in extreme pain. This case does not fit.Get Free PS2 BIOS

We hope the law could be flexible enough to administer justice. This week, I have read that the state arrested a man after they found some starved cows around his barn. This week, I read the state had shot 5 antelope because, otherwise, they would have starved. I watched 2 murder cases conclude that had almost equal hard evidence. One is free and the other on death row. Okay, law is not always free and equal. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Everyone points to religion. Nice stick. Two branches of government said the Courts should establish FACTS, again. The Courts thumbed their collective noses. If the Courts had follwed the law, and found the FACTS the same, I prefer to give her Equal Antelope Civil Rights. I can live with "starving her to death" if you all insist.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Powerline (3/26) has part of that letter that someone mentioned above. Sums it up for me without pointing to a single religious zealot or FCC.Get Free PS2 BIOS

They were out-lawyered.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: owl on March 27, 2005 06:12 PM

PS-
Are you saying that "Allahu Akbar" isn't the call to prayer?
Wow, you should really let the thousands of muezzins who have been using that as the call to prayer over the past 1400 years know that.
(I guess they don't have access to the great theological text that is 'wikipedia', tho') Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 06:14 PM

Owl I agree. The courts did thumb their noses. Terri's life is a reflection of all life. We want to have a "culture of life" and not of death. There should have been a thorough review with something as critical as this.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Also to Ruth..."her life ended fifteen years ago"!!!! Are you God or even a doctor.There have been cases of people coming out of a vegetative state. A woman woke up out of one after twenty five years. What if even if the brain is severly damaged you can still hear and understand people. Some people in deep comas who have recovered have reported that they did. There has been new scientific evidence with highly develped brain scans that say people in these states or ones thought to be hopeless do have previously undetected brain function.Perhaps the starts and fits...groans and moans out of people in vegetative states are just the very arduous and long delayed responses they attempt to make in response to the things around them. WE don't know absolutely for sure. I believe in the future we will see that things pertaining to brain function are vastly different than what we have previously thought. After all we only use ten percent of our brain.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Liz,Get Free PS2 BIOS

P.S. If I write something it is only something I have either read in or heard from a reliable source(if there is such a thing). I sometimes think the news is in it's own vegetative state. You have to listen to a great deal of informantion to really glean anything like the truth. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 06:45 PM

Owl I agree. The courts did thumb their noses. Terri's life is a reflection of all life. We want to have a "culture of life" and not of death. There should have been a thorough review with something as critical as this.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Also to Ruth..."her life ended fifteen years ago"!!!! Are you God or even a doctor.There have been cases of people coming out of a vegetative state. A woman woke up out of one after twenty five years. What if even if the brain is severly damaged you can still hear and understand people. Some people in deep comas who have recovered have reported that they did. There has been new scientific evidence with highly develped brain scans that say people in these states or ones thought to be hopeless do have previously undetected brain function.Perhaps the starts and fits...groans and moans out of people in vegetative states are just the very arduous and long delayed responses they attempt to make in response to the things around them. WE don't know absolutely for sure. I believe in the future we will see that things pertaining to brain function are vastly different than what we have previously thought. After all we only use ten percent of our brain.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Liz,Get Free PS2 BIOS

P.S. If I write something it is only something I have either read in or heard from a reliable source(if there is such a thing). I sometimes think the news is in it's own vegetative state. You have to listen to a great deal of informantion to really glean anything like the truth. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 06:45 PM

Yehudit, how does 40 judges getting involved in this case (some of them more than once) not indicate that she received due process? How many years has this been going on? Try saying something that isn't a lie. Because claiming that there was no due process after all of the courts this has been through is nothing but a baseless lie.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Jim S on March 27, 2005 06:46 PM

Damn those religious people and their unreasonable opposition to murder! They should all be put to death! Besides, it would only be a favor to kill them all so they can meet their maker faster. (sarcasm)Get Free PS2 BIOS

Seriously, I'm not particularly religious myself, but it's really not a leap to understand why devout people are so upset about this.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think you'll find more people, despite their own feelings about the issue, puzzling about why the strident pro-death people were *just as angry*... what was their motivation? We keep hearing "to end her suffering" while "she's a vegetable that can't feel anything" (doesn't make any sense!) and complaints about the cost of care even though at this point there are hundreds of families apart from her own who would support her care. It just doesn't make any sense, for the millionth time, it doesn't make any sense. Even JJ, a normally reasonable guy (even when I disagree with him) sounds livid... that people opposed putting the woman to death.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I don't know if I ever really came too far off the fence one way or another, myself. My decision wasn't going to affect much, and it was a difficult case. But I could never get angry at the parents or the religious because I understand their motives. Why are those on the other side so angry?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Is it just that it's a competing agenda? I mean, listening to JJ complain about them, you would think that these people had *less* rights to try influence the government than "real" people. We see anti-war demonstrations all the time, but with no accompanying hand-wringing about how they are subverting democracy. Are these people subhuman? Are they not allowed to take part in US democracy? If so, why haven't we shipped them off yet to a special penal colony for the Very Religious?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: carsonfire on March 27, 2005 06:57 PM

owl:
LizElder:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Do you believe in heaven? or God? Would you seriously condemn anyone to stay on this earth in a state of crippled, noncommunicative limbo like this when she could be with her maker? Where is your heart? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Yes, I made other connections too - in an attempt to show you that simply maintaining an existence is not a sacred calling. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Again, I refer to the Chairman of the Pres's Council on Bioethics. That treating death as a disease to be treated is asking whether it matters not so much how long one lives as how well one lives. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Peace to you all.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 27, 2005 07:00 PM

dan
Hello? I quoted only that portion of Wikipedia because you flatly stated that "Allahu Akbar" is not a battle call.Get Free PS2 BIOS

But that's just more of your dissembling. You're still avoiding the main point, which is that schools are banning Christianity, the Bible, and teaching of the Bible, but Islam, the Koran and teaching the Koran is encouraged.
If you're the "Christian" you say you are, that should trouble you greatly and make you want to do something about it. Instead, you're spouting LLL rhetoric about diversity and how we should just all get along. Of course I doubt you!
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 07:05 PM

Cat Dancing-Get Free PS2 BIOS

First of all, I have no idea what "LLL rhetoric" means.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And, since it has come to this, there are two things you should know about me
-I have done extensive missionary work for my church in Africa (mainly South Africa, but some in Malawi).
-I am currently working on my M. Div.Get Free PS2 BIOS

If you really have doubts about my faith, perhaps you ought to raise them with the priests and professors who are teaching me theology. They would be surprised.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Look, it's Easter. I certainly did not want to get in a feud on the internet on today of all days. Call my words of tolerance "LLL rhetoric" if you wish, but I'm simply trying to follow the example of Christ. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 07:16 PM

Also-
How many times do I have to say that I think the Bible ought to be taught in schools before you take what I'm saying at face value.
I did look into these claims (when I should have been working on my thesis about the Pauline conception of sin) and I found that far from forcing these children to become Muslim, or whatever that WND article said, that the segment on Islam was taught as part of world history as well as Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. If you object to schools teaching history, then I'm not sure what you want our kids to learn.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 07:21 PM

Yes, the religious right may have jumped the shark, just as the gay activist extremists jumped the shark last year when several politicians broke the law and married gays----the law be damned---this is civil rights, baby, MLK would approve! At least the Bush brothers seem to have some sense that going outside the law would have dire consequences----liberals obviously do not. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: paladin on March 27, 2005 07:33 PM

asx. I don't want to dictate anything. I just think it's fucked up that everyone is so scared of offending everyone else. That's all.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: von on March 27, 2005 08:17 PM

Jeff: You overestimate the Religious Right while underestimating them. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Until the 2004 Election, they were not even on the radar. When Bush won his 2nd term, everyone credited them with the victory because many people voted on "values" supposedly. That was the conventional wisdom.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Then Hilary Clinton and Howard Dean are pandering to the religious. They still are. They haven't stopped. So are caught with their pants down? You make the call.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Nope, this is more liberal mis-underestimation. I think you should re-think your misguided straw man argument.Get Free PS2 BIOS

In the end, I think the Democrats are caught without a position. If they acknowledged the Religious Right has overreached, then Hilary Clinton and Howard Dean has to stop what they're doing and star all over again. The next election is 2006. What are they going to do?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: tim wg on March 27, 2005 08:20 PM

dan
That's all fine, but you STILL ignore my first and constant question.
Why is it ok that schools are banning Christianity, the Bible, and teaching about the Bible, while Islam, the Koran and teaching about Koran is encouraged?
You can call it "history" or "culture" or whatever label you want to give it, but unless the Bible and Christianity are given FULL AND EQUAL treatment, it's just another feel-good, agenda driven program. That you have assiduously ignored this in every one of your posts tells me that your priorities are somehow screwed up.
Your priorities, by the way, are what I am addressing...not your "faith", which is a subjective evaluation outside this discussion.
Have a good night.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 08:20 PM

dan:Get Free PS2 BIOS

A little contention sometimes isn't the worst thing, we do clarify our views. My college required a year of bible study. Many good muslims and buddhists learned about the other side, not a terrible thing.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 27, 2005 08:22 PM

Cat woman, Kat,
Thank you for digging up those references. I think you are making a mistake if you believe this is anything more than innocent learning. These children are not being indoctrinated into Islam, the school system is not working for al Queda. Get Free PS2 BIOS

When I was in 9th grade studying German, we did all the same things. I chose a German name, we cooked German recipes at home for extra credit, etc. No one would get hysterical about that, or mistake it for indoctrination.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The fact that you feel this is some kind of indoctrination into Islam suggests to me that you are highly intolerant and fearful of Muslims.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Don't worry. They are human beings just like we are.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: -asx- on March 27, 2005 08:28 PM

Cat Dancing-Get Free PS2 BIOS

How many times do I have to say this?Get Free PS2 BIOS

(forgive the all caps) I THINK THE BIBLE SHOULD BE IN SCHOOLS! I THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE GIVEN "FULL AND EQUAL" TREATMENT!Get Free PS2 BIOS

Had I only made that point in one post that would be one thing, but I have said that in THREE different posts. Get Free PS2 BIOS

One more time, in case you missed it (sorry caps again):Get Free PS2 BIOS

I THINK THE BIBLE SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS!Get Free PS2 BIOS

Crimony!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 08:29 PM

Jeff: Another thing, if the Religious Right is credited with trying to keep an innocent woman alive on her "death bed" rather than a guilty criminal on "death row", then perhaps the public will wake up and notice the difference.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The manner of death is obviously different too. The criminal gets humane treatment up until a very quick death. The innocent disabled woman gets starved to death.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The contrast is huge.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: tim wg on March 27, 2005 08:35 PM

I'm sorry, I got lost. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Could you repeat the post please? Get Free PS2 BIOS

I actually think that Jeff's post deserves more thoughtful comments -- this is a multi-faceted conversation, and it digenerated into pulling out articles from 2002 and Californias hate Christians.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I would also ask that those of you who just _know_ how horrible it is to starve a comatose person, and how those of who do so are murderers be aware that many of us have to make this or similar decisions for loved ones. Try a little empathy if you can't try a little compassion.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And tim wg, what makes you think that executions in this country are universally without pain? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Finally, Dan, Man of God: 1 Cat Person: 0.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Shelley on March 27, 2005 08:47 PM

So you keep saying, but it's not happening, dan. Get Free PS2 BIOS

And your insistance that we should accept it as just "history" or "culture" when schools teach Islam and the Koran (but not Christianity and the Bible) says that it's just fine with you. Get Free PS2 BIOS

So we're back at your screwed up priorities...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 08:48 PM

Heh Ruth,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Does Orson Scott Card ever have your number, baby.Get Free PS2 BIOS

This is you. Get Free PS2 BIOS

It wasn’t that many years ago when I happened to be in Raleigh at a gathering of literary folk who were quite full of their own superiority. They started talking about people who (gasp!) let years go by without reading a single book.

“Why do they even bother being alive?” asked one of them. Almost everyone laughed.Get Free PS2 BIOS

They went on and on about the worthlessness of the lives of non-intellectuals. Shopping in malls. Eating at McDonald’s. Driving their gas-guzzling cars.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I did ask where they shopped, and which of them had arrived at the party by balloon. I have not been invited to such gatherings since.Get Free PS2 BIOS

It’s so easy to decide that someone else’s life is not worth living. Lacking something that we regard as essential, we cannot fathom how they get through a day.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The nattering of intellectuals about the valuelessness of the “unexamined life” might be taken as hyperbole, if it weren’t for the fact that it is precisely our intellectual elite that has decided to set itself up as champions of the right to murder people “for their own good.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS

And this is his reply:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Let’s act on an old slogan that promotes life: “Love conquers all.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

It is not love of any kind that arrogantly says, “Better to be dead than live like that.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

My answer is, Better to be stupid than to be so “smart” you think you have the right to judge innocent lives as not worth living, just because you wouldn’t wish to live it yourself.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here is Michael Schiavo:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Ms. Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, were unable to convince Michael Schiavo to allow his wife the sacrament of communion during the holiest day of the Catholic year.

And here is Rabbi Lazer Brody making a general remark on his blog:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Where there's kindness and consideration, one can find spirituality. Where there's no kindness and consideration, one certainly won't find spirituality. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Posted by: eduardo on March 27, 2005 08:48 PM

Sigh. It should have been 'degenerated'.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Shelley on March 27, 2005 08:49 PM

So, Shelly, shouting the same thing without really answering the question does it for you, hmmm?
I'm not surprised. That's what they teach in Liberalism 101.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 08:51 PM

Ruth,Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think that there should be a polling of people who have been in a coma and came out of it to see what they think. Now that's a poll that would really count! Let's talk to people who have faced death. Let's see how many would have wanted someone else to end their life. I don't think you will find too many.Get Free PS2 BIOS

It seems to me we often talk out of fear. Life is life. Death is the end of it as we presently know it. Everything after death is just a guess. I believe in an after life. Of course as much as I do believe in one I can't,nor can any single person, know absolutely for sure that one exists. Even with all the reports of after death experiences.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I also believe there is a universal intelligence...God. I just don't think we should be doing his job for Him. If there is unbelievable pain and suffering and absolutely no hope whatsoever for saving a patient, incurable cancer which has spread throughout a patient's body, or something akin to it, and this patient is facing imminent death, then I think it might be alright to hasten that person's departure. Any of us might still struggle with such a decision. It is one thing to say we feel such and such a way and another to actually do the thing.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Anyway I don't see what a belief in God has to do with deciding Terri's fate. It has nothing to do with it. I like to think God is for life, love, hope and compassion. Get Free PS2 BIOS

There is enough evidence for me that people do and can come out of a coma or maybe even a vegatative state. I'm not in the business of death. So I'm not adding my voice to the call for it. I'll leave that to the merchants of death. Of which it seems to me there are way too many. Get Free PS2 BIOS

If we get lost in this web of "life's not worth living if it's not such and such" what in the world are we going to be facing in the future. Perhaps others will be deciding if you or I live or die. I'll decide for myself when and if life is worth living. Just being able to sit or lie down and think is a wonderful thing. Would I want someone to take that away from me if I were unable to express myself and in a wheel chair. I don't think so. I don't care if a hundred doctors say Terri didn't have cognitive thought. I can't know that for sure. There is too much we don't know and doctors make many mistakes.We are on the threshold of new and miraculous discoveries. Terri is now deprived of any benefit from them. Get Free PS2 BIOS

As for the pain and suffering. I think the pain and suffering of the parents and siblings and everyone else who can visualize a helpless person being put to death by an arrogant tyrant like Michael Schiavo is enough to last a lifetime. In fact I think he has engineered enough suffering to last at least a dozen lifetimes. I wouldn't want to have his karma.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I beleive there is a collective consciousness that as so many believed Scott Peterson to be guilty of killing his wife before all the evidence was in (things just didn't add up)so there are also many who feel the facts don't add up when it comes to Mr. Schiavo. Get Free PS2 BIOS

As for compassion you should try e-mailing him regarding his total lack of it. His cruelty is palpable.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I listened to Terri's friends relate how unhappy she was in her marriage....how he used to monitor her every move and measure the gas and the mileage on their car. I know about abusive husbands. Her best friend said Terri was planning to leave Michael and get an apartment with her. Too bad she couldn't escape fast enough.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Let's not be so quick to send people to God. Remember the two spinsters in Arsenic and Old Lace...killing old men because they thought they were suffering and lonely. They were both insane.Are we a society of insane people thinking that we have the right to call for someone's demise. Life is hard enough, let's let God do the death decision thing. Everyone has their own destiny to live out. What has it got to do with you and me. What is unendurable pain and suffering for you or for me may not be for someone else.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I have a difficult enough time figuring out what I want for myself. How am I going to do that for another. How can any of us possibly know what Terri would have wanted for herself. And let me repeat myself,some whimsacal thing she may or may not have said while watching a television program hardly counts. Life and death decisions have to be made with a tremendous amount of careful thought. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I used to think there was no way I would ever want to live through something as terrible as the death camp Auschwitz until I read Frankel's The Meaning of Life. It's about his experiences in Auschwitz. Life is fluid. Your ideas change. I hope all these people rushing about and filling out living wills really contemplate what they are doing before they seal their fate!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 09:02 PM

"I think that there should be a polling of people who have been in a coma and came out of it to see what they think"Get Free PS2 BIOS

She's not in a frickin coma! She's not going to wake up! Most of her cortex is gone, and she has a FLATLINE EEG. Why is that so hard to grasp?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Of course, when Delay, the Friars, or even Mr. Schiavo had to choose to take their parents or founder off life support, you weren't there to call THAT fishy, not even though all three people had far more brain activity than Terri Schiavo when they were "murdered." Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: plunge on March 27, 2005 09:11 PM

Liz Elder:
THAT was beautiful and moving. Thank you.
You're an impressive writer. In fact, you remind me of my favorite columnist. I won't say which one, but your styles are very close.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 09:12 PM

Cat Dancing,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Maybe I've been misreading your question. I've looked at your previous posts, and thought I had answered your question. Perhaps I am mistaken.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I really want to be clear here, I never insisted that the Qur'an should be taught to the detriment of the Bible, as history or culture or whatnot, and I'm sorry if that's how you took what I was writing. I think it's wrong for ANY book to be banned, especially the one that has had the most impact on my life. The Bible is so important to me that I even learned Koine Greek and am currently learning Hebrew and Aramaic, so I can read it in its original form, and not just the translation.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I honestly thought that I had answered your question. Perhaps you could rephrase it in a clearer manner so I could answer it to your satisfaction and we could come to some sort of agreement or, failing that, at least an understanding of one another.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 09:15 PM

And then we hear from "plunge" of the tin ear. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 09:16 PM

So much has been written that it's only left to me to again condemn Jeff's relentless assault on the Democrats and demand that he resign from the party. I'll be making my banner after I finish these yummy Peeps!Get Free PS2 BIOS

But if you wanted a serious point, ask yourself how there was clear and convicnicng evidence that Ms. Schiavo wanted to die when her husband -- the person making that claim -- pursued extraordinary methods of trying to cure her for six to eight years previously. I would be much more comfortable about the case if there was an explanation for that, but afaik, there isn't one. Judge Greer's order essentially dismissed it on the ground that the parents can't be heard to complain about it because it prolonged Ms. Schiavo's life. But it seems to me saying one thing after doing another for years ought to bear on the credibility of the claim. Of course, Judge Greer heard the witnesses; I did not. But it seems like he glossed over a problematic aspect of the case, which is disturbing when a life is at stake.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: EverKarl on March 27, 2005 09:25 PM

dan
I appreciate that you thought you were answering my question, but we may so far apart that we'll never connect. I'll try once more and then let's call it a night.

I recognize that you prefer that the Bible be taught. However, you have followed that statement with the viewpoint that the current unbalanced program is nothing more than teaching culture or history.Get Free PS2 BIOS

To me, that is a contradiction which negates your "preference".Get Free PS2 BIOS

That's it. That's as plain as I can make it.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 09:38 PM

Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought I made clear (I guess not, tho') that I think it is improper to teach Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, etc. and not teach Christianity.
Actually, 'improper' might not be a strong enough word. I think it's flat-out WRONG to leave out Christianity, ESPECIALLY if one's values are in being diverse.
In Israel, for example, it would be absurd to teach the Qur'an and the Dhammapada and not teach the Torah. Since most in the US are Christian, it only makes sense to teach about Christianity, as well as teach about the other faiths.
To paraphrase Dick Cheney, tolerance means tolerance for everyone.
I hope this makes sense, I really need to get studying.
(Who knew Hebrew verbs had gender?! Arrgghhh!)Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 09:49 PM

Hallelujah!Get Free PS2 BIOS

A long time ago, I had a friend who always said, "language is such a difficult way to communicate".Get Free PS2 BIOS

Have a great night dan.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 09:55 PM

"...all the way down to where students are taught to say Allahu akbar..."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Actually, I think it's worse than that. ISTR that in Islam, to verbally declare "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" is both necessary and sufficient to become muslim.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And as we all know, the proscribed death penalty has been carried out more than once on muslims who attempt to refute Islam.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Oops! Sorry, kids!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: zeppenwolf on March 27, 2005 10:02 PM

EverKarl;Get Free PS2 BIOS

I don’t think it is difficult at all. Get Free PS2 BIOS

The issue isn’t whether Ms. Schiavo wanted to die, the issue is whether she would prefer to die rather than be keep alive by artificial means for 20+ years if there was no hope of returning to consciousness. It seems reasonable to me that her husband would try desperately to find some way to help her before finally accepting the fact that she was gone and seeking to allow her body to die. Something her parents have been unable to do.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The fact that he tried to find a cure for her makes him more credible that if he had immediately sought to let her die.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Robert Brown on March 27, 2005 10:02 PM

And let me further say that I think that Religion, as a subject of inquiry, ought to be taught in public schools. There is no reason that I should have had to wait until college to take a Religion 101 class, for example. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Had we a comprehensive system of teaching about different faiths, perhaps more people would be aware that Osama bin Laden, to take the most obvious example, is acting contrary to the tenets of Islam. Would it stop the Wahabbist fanatics in Saudi? No, but it would reframe the debate in the minds of the average guy or gal in the US (who doesn't see this as his/her life's work as I do) as not 'Christianity vs. Islam', but as an 'extremist vs. a sober, sensible approach to faith.' Get Free PS2 BIOS

An absolutely wonderful thing about America is that we have more rights for those of all faiths than any other country on Earth. This suspicion of those of other faiths based on nothing else but their faith is not just wrong, but un-American.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: procrastinatin' dan on March 27, 2005 10:04 PM

Jeff,Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's interesting how your comments have turned into a message board. This message if for you, though, man: Get Free PS2 BIOS

Thanks for this post. I've quoted it extensively over on my blog (http://www.knightopia.com/journal/archives/000630.html). As I say over there, I think you understand the "mainstream" of America better than just about anyone (especially the "Religious Right"). Get Free PS2 BIOS

The most frustrating part of the whole Schiavo case is how it's taken up some much brainpower and airtime that could've gone to other worthy causes -- like stopping the genocide happening in Sudan right now! (http://www.knightopia.com/journal/archives/000609.html)Get Free PS2 BIOS

I believe that all human life is sacred, and so I weep for Terri Schiavo. But the Law is the Law. Until it is changed, others like Terri will be forced to die, but there are lives all over the world that could be saved if our attention was turned outward, instead of inward at our own self-interests. Conservative Christians have to ask themselves: Doesn't this "culture of life" we espouse include the lives of countless black Africans in Sudan? The answer is simply, Yes.Get Free PS2 BIOS

So I'm hoping to raise some awareness about the dire situation in Sudan, and I'm calling on you, Mr. Jarvis, to use your voice and your media outlets (BuzzMachine, MSNBC, etc.) to raise awareness and mobilize action to stop the genocide. And keep talking about it until the killing ends and a "new day" rises for the people of Darfur.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Amen? Amen.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Shalom,
Steve K.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Steve K. on March 27, 2005 10:06 PM

Cat-
See, I knew we could reach an understanding once we stopped getting heated (both of are to blame for that).
If I may be so bold, I think this is exactly what Jesus would have wanted.
Especially on Easter.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 10:08 PM

Steve K.-
As much as I may disagree with them on many issues, I must say that many in the "Religious Right" have been beating the drum about Darfur more so than many of my so-called 'allies' on the left.
Many are absolutely stellar on the environment, too.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 27, 2005 10:14 PM

I agree, dan. Way back on the thread, someone said pretty much the same thing about learning and understanding on Easter.
Now, you'd better shut down Buzz Machine and get to work!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: cat dancing on March 27, 2005 10:15 PM

eduardo
liz elder:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Fearing death so much is something I don't understand. Maybe it is a difference in our experiences. I have seen people maintained in an existence they were more than ready to leave, and don't know why anyone would want that. Get Free PS2 BIOS

today I visited some one who longs to go to be with God and while I would not help her on her way, I sympathize with her. She is very old, very unable to keep up with her own needs, and very tired of the embarrassment of her own lapses. Get Free PS2 BIOS

But for some one without a cortex, there is no such thing as pain, or embarrassment, or feelings. Or fear. And do you want that for yourself? your children, or your parents? Sorry, I see this as making a point, not caring.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 27, 2005 10:15 PM

Dear Cat Dancer,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Thank you very much for your kind compliments. I deeply appreciated them. This whole exchange between everyone on Jeff's blog is very cathartic. I thank Jeff for it and posting all our comments.Get Free PS2 BIOS

To Steve K,Get Free PS2 BIOS

I care deeply about the situation in the Sudan as do the other friends I mentioned. It's one of the things I care most about. I am constantly looking for ways to help alleviate the great suffering in Africa. Donating what money I can is all I can do for now. I want very much to go to the Sudan someday if there is any way I can find to be really helpful. I don't think caring about Terri Schiavo precludes caring about the Sudan. ALthought you are right every caring person should do what they can for the horrific suffering occuring there. We do seem to forget all too quickly. Although I also know there is only so much pain and suffering besides our own we can endure over a prolonged time without losing hope.

To Eduardo.Get Free PS2 BIOS

On the contrary I am not at all afraid of dying. When I was seventeen I had a beautiful dream that I had died but been brought back to life. Sort of an after death experience without having one. I haven't been afraid of dying since then. However having said thatI don't think any of us really knows how we would feel until faced with it. Get Free PS2 BIOS

My job sometimes takes me to dangerous places and I don't worry about what might happen until I get there. I'm just trying to say there is plenty of time to be dead... much more than to be alive. So please let's stop giving out death sentences. As so many others have said before we had best err on the side of life. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Liz
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 27, 2005 11:02 PM

P dan--it is also naive to believe that the Koran doesn't teach jihad and martrydom and killing Jews and infidels.
Here is an example of a non Saudi, nice little muslim boy in Canada and what he learns from the Koran. Yes, we need to learn about the Koran--I read it and boy, were my eyes opened wide. Till then I never had a clue. Islam needs to be reformed and as long people like you keep making excuses there isn't a hope in hell. Islam teaches that muslims must take over the world, if they can't convert you they should kill you. The moderates are too afraid to speak up so the radicals run the show. Like CAIR.
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/27/wcan27.xml
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 27, 2005 11:08 PM

My only problem with the recent discussion of what is stereotyped as the legally-true left vs. the religiously-obsessed right re: Schiavo is that it attempts to simplify a very complex discussion that intersects law, politics, & medicine. One doesn't need to be agnostic to be uncomfortable with extending Ms. Schiavo's long twilight; nor does one need to be religious to find moral issues in dispatching her under the current circumstances.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Like Elian Gonzales, it is a situation so stunningly singular and wrenched with the blackness of human despair that it is possible to be befuddled by the intractable problem of prioritizing the various values that are in conflict.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And for my dollar, I'd much rather disagree with someone over these vast questions of life than be told that I need to shake it off, because it is all so damn simple.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: AbyssBoy on March 28, 2005 12:14 AM

And returning to what Jeff wrote in his post...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Shelley on March 28, 2005 01:04 AM

Yes.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Steel Magnolia on March 28, 2005 03:38 AM

I neither believe the Schiavo case has divided parties and the nation, Or that the religious right is 'separating itself' from the rest of the country. Perhaps JJ wishes the latter were true, primarily based on his 1st Amendment/FCC arguments and his political views. [I read the links and sorry, nothing compelling for me there.] For a guy who sets out lilys and pansies at dawn at his own church to continuously bash those of faith - we're apparently now expanding the class of fringe 'religious nutjobs' to the much larger 'religious right'? - is disturbing. Broad brush strokes always obscure fine details. But he's entitled to his views, and most of us here are grateful for his platform which allows us to express our own.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Mainstream America, I do agree, is populated by many who don't attend church regularly or hold fundamentalist views, but nor is it predominantly comprised of gay pride activists. Do they constitute a fanatic, nutjob fringe group to JJ? No. It's all about those pesky beliefs and values. Many mega millions of those who hold spiritual or religious views don't wave placards or even express their beliefs in any public forum. They show up to vote, though. We're a hodgepodge of values and views on any given issue, and particularly in the Schiavo case.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I'm sorry I don't recall who commented here about the new dark religion of anti-religion. No truer words. Get Free PS2 BIOS

There are so many disturbing elements to Terri's plight it is mind-boggling. I agree with AbyssBoy and several others who have stated it's just not so neat and tidy an affair. On the political front, I lean one way. On the legal front, multiple and competing views garner my support. Quality of life issues, multiple difficulties related to 'the husband', and issues of life and death regarding my own spiritual views clamor in sometimes opposing directions. The din is resounding. Then there's 'Ahhhhhh waannnnn...'Get Free PS2 BIOS

Like EverKarl, I also wonder what took Michael so many years to take up his great right to die quest. I suspect it occured when HE gave up hope, and therefore decided to finish her....which was just about the time his girlfriend entered the picture, according to some reports. There are a host of missing and conflicting facts. Why didn't he just get divorced and leave her in the care of her family? Someone here said it's because he's Catholic? And if he didn't get a divorce because he'd lose his standing as her guardian and the legal battle, one has to wonder if there were/are other motivating factors beyond a 'pure' desire to honor Terri's wishes.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Why the insistence on cremation contra Catholic beliefs? Does anyone believe he'll allow an autopsy to check out the multiple broken bones claim by Terri's brother (as expressed on MSNBC a few days ago)? Did his determined quest for her death pop up at around the time those studies were done? Is that when all further testing stopped? I'm asking. I do not know.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Anyone who claims to be 'certain' and omniscient on every aspect of this one is automatically suspect, in my view. But it doesn't ultimately constitute any great divide we can't handle all 'round. My hope at this point is simply that Terri will be home soon. Get Free PS2 BIOS

[Meanwhile, EverKarl, please don't eat all the little peeps!] Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 28, 2005 04:56 AM

Hey, Richard McEnroe, check out these 'liberal wingnut' quotes on Schiavo case:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Sen. John Warner (R-Va.): “This senator has learned from many years you’ve got to separate your own emotions from the duty to support the Constitution of this country. These are fundamental principles of federalism.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.): “This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy. There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Bob Barr: “The final legislation pays lip service to the notion that it does not set a precedent. But if it does anything at all, it sets a precedent. In fact, it sets a precedent potentially more far-reaching than most others I can recall, in terms of legislative policy and process, equal protection, federalism, state’s rights, separation of powers and family law.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

James P. Pinkerton: “...whenever the Democrats retake power and resume their own ambitious national agenda, they will happily trample on ‘states’ rights,’ citing the Schiavo legislation as their precedent. But maybe by then Republicans won’t care as much, because the traditional conservative belief system, which grounded its politics in the original intent of the Founding Fathers, has been superseded – the Constitutional Right now being the Religious Right.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

“Americans are now learning that the social-issue core of the newly energized, Southernized and Christianized Republican Party cares a lot more about its faith and its values than about the old verity of small government.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Ryan Sager: “In coming years, political historians might look back and try to pinpoint the day or week or month that the Republican Party shed the last vestiges of its small-government philosophy. If and when they do, the week just past should make the short list. For it was in this last week that the Republican-controlled Congress made it clear that it sees no area of American life — none too trivial and none too intimate — that the federal government should not permeate with its power.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

“Not a few people — especially boomers with aging parents — are going to see themselves in this case, and they are going to picture Rep. Tom DeLay in the hospital room with them, standing between them and their loved ones. But, of course, this means nothing to a national Republican Party increasingly impervious to the logic of its own prior positions.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Michael Totten: “An excruciating philosophical and moral conundrum, one for which there are no easy or even right answers, has been turned into yet another partisan ‘culture war’ bitch-fest. It’s all so degrading and corrosive.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Andrew Sullivan: “So it is now the federal government’s role to micro-manage baseball and to prevent a single Florida woman who is trapped in a living hell from dying with dignity. We’re getting to the point when conservatism has become a political philosophy that believes that government — at the most distant level — has the right to intervene in almost anything to achieve the right solution. Today’s conservatism is becoming yesterday’s liberalism.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Andrew Sullivan: “It is simply amazing to hear the advocates of the inviolability of the heterosexual civil marital bond deny Terri Schiavo’s legal husband the right to decide his wife’s fate, when she cannot decide it for herself. Again, the demands of the religious right pre-empt constitutionalism, federalism, and even the integrity of the family. When conservatism means breaking up the civil bond between a man and his wife, you know it has ceased to be conservative. But we have known that for a long time now. Conservatism is a philosophy without a party in America any more. It has been hijacked by zealots and statists.”Get Free PS2 BIOS

Glenn Reynolds: “I thought conservatives were supposed to care about the law, but I see a lot of people being as result-oriented as, well, liberals are supposed to be [...] I’m quite astonished to hear people who call themselves conservatives arguing, in effect, that Congress and the federal courts have a free-ranging charter to correct any injustice, anywhere, regardless of the Constitution. And yet my email runneth over with just those kinds of comments. And arguing that “it’s okay because liberals do it too” doesn’t undercut my point that conservatives are acting like liberals here. It makes it.”Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 09:06 AM

"Anyone who claims to be 'certain' and omniscient on every aspect of this one is automatically suspect, in my view." Surely Eileen is correct here. Unfortunately, so many peoeple are sure they are correct here. The only certain thing so far is that most people don't believe Fed government should have stepped in.

And mullah kat---don't you have a stake to go burn someone at or someone to stone? Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 09:11 AM

From Amitai Etzioni (GWU):
(An interesting reflection, and one that I noted in several threads:)Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Hydration, Feeding Tubes, and Healthcare for Others?Get Free PS2 BIOS

I do not make light of the conservative concern for the termination of life-prolonging services for someone who is brain-damaged. Sure, their motives are not all pure, but then whose are? But I am puzzled by their lack of concern for providing clean water, nutrition, and basic healthcare for the millions who lack these and are not brain-damaged. Are they not all also God's children?"Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 28, 2005 10:27 AM

[snip] "Are they not all also God's children?"Get Free PS2 BIOS

But this is exactly the problem...because of conflicting values, finding hypocrisy in politics is as easy as a turkey shoot. For if we reduce an issue to only one value, and we declare one side to be hypocritical, the same charge can be made about the other side.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I just find that a lot of these charges are made to end discussion, not to seek some greater understanding.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: AbyssBoy on March 28, 2005 10:38 AM

I am a member of the Ohio bar, and an active member of the federalist Society, hardly an "irresponsible demagougue". Yet many of us think Jeb Bush should have ignored the Florida judiciary, just like Mitt Romney should have ignored his courts order to recognize homosexuals in marriage. (It will hurt them both politically, buy the way, because lefties would never support them regardless, and now their base will turn, properly, to conservative candidates in the future.)Get Free PS2 BIOS

Those on the left lionize acts of disobedience when they think it warranted; that is precsily the matter here. If the cause is just, the executive should not cower meekly simply becasue some judge said so. Jen Bush made a big mistake, morally and politically, in wimping out because of the courts.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Lawrence Milleman on March 28, 2005 10:43 AM

Kat-Get Free PS2 BIOS

Well, since you have read the Qur'an, you must know that Jews and Christians are welcomed as 'people of the book' and thus are not considered infidels no matter what scum like bin Laden say. Al Qa'ida and their ilk are no more true Muslims than those responsible for the Crusades or the Inquisition were Christians.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Every religious text in the Abrahamic tradition has parts that can be cherry-picked to justify horrid acts. Think of the many references to slavery in the Bible used to oppose those "un-Christian abolitionists" in the mid 1800's. Get Free PS2 BIOS

With a greater understanding of Islam, it would be harder for the rotten governments in the Middle East to twist the words of Muhammed into anti-Westernism.Get Free PS2 BIOS

In your reading in the Qur'an, you must have come across the part in which 'jihad' is described as an internal strife that one must go through in order to be a true Muslim. That is the true jihad. 'Jihad' meaning war against Christians and Jews is not only a misuse of the word, it is un-Islamic, and it's high time that that becomes more well-known. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 11:03 AM

Jeff,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Mostly I find your blogs fit my notions of fair and balanced. But this attack against the so-called religious right is, well, villainous comes to mind. I think Hugh Hewitt sums it up perfectly: Just substitute "Jew" for "religious right" and you'll get the picture of exactly what your tirade reminds me of. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Mike on March 28, 2005 11:15 AM

Yes, dan, I read all about that internal struggle.
And I felt all fuzzy inside.
"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)Get Free PS2 BIOS

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)Get Free PS2 BIOS

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)Get Free PS2 BIOS

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)Get Free PS2 BIOS

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)Get Free PS2 BIOS

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11) Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 11:15 AM

Kat-
I never denied that there are parts of the Qur'an that are hideous, just as there are parts of the Old and New Testaments that advocate horrible acts.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Despite what Exodus and Deuteronomy say, I doubt that (most) Jews or Christians want people who wear two different types of fabric at the same time to be stoned to death. I have never seen at any rally, anyone carrying a sign that says: "God hates those who wear poly-cotton blends", tho' there is scriptural evidence for that belief Get Free PS2 BIOS

My only point is that with any religion, there is good and bad, and the purpose of Churches, Synagogues and Mosques ought to be to separate the wheat from the chaff and emphasize the divine aspect while not substituting current mores for eternal truths.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think everybody can agree that Islam is in dire need of reform if it is to be a faith that is relevant in the 21st century. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 11:30 AM

Kat, as Dan indicated, you can pick the same type of verses out of the Bible, e.g. Deuteronomy Chapter 13.Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's the practice, not the literal text, that matters.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 11:33 AM

Jeff, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for lying about this case. You claim that Terri's support is from the religious right alone. Since when are Lanni Davis and Tom Harkin members of the religious right?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Stop lying about this case. Gather some facts and present a cogent, informed opinion. You're the one jumping the shark here.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: bp on March 28, 2005 11:36 AM

Hi Jeff,
Just looked through your article after Hugh Hewitt referred to it. Get Free PS2 BIOS

My response? Please stop calling me names. You don't know me well enough to insult me.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I have an earned doctorate, I read nonfiction books with lots of pages, and I think about things rather than react reflexively to whoever has the loudest bullhorn. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I am a Christian, because I believe Christ died for my sins on Good Friday and gave me new life on Easter. I am a Republican second, but I am a Republican still, despite my disagreement with some in my party over Terry Schiavo. I am also a grown-up who can disagree with someone without picking up my toys and going home.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I see the Schiavo case as judge-sanctioned starvation, and I am appalled. It may be legal, but it is not just. I pray still for a miracle, I will work to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again in America, and I will never forget. Get Free PS2 BIOS

However, I will work within the system to change the system, while reserving the right to criticize that system when it is justified. How does that make me so different from you, Jeff? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Now you know me a little better, Jeff, but who are you? Are you God, as George Greer apparently thinks he is? Can you see inside Terry Schiavo's soul to know her wishes? Can you see into mine to know that I am a Religious Right fanatic? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Cut out the ad hominem attacks, treat me like the human being I am, and we'll talk. Or you can just keep swimming with the MSM sharks, and be just another dude with a bullhorn. Time's yours. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ron on March 28, 2005 12:33 PM

Jeff:Get Free PS2 BIOS

I agree that the Muslim faith has the possibility to become, although I disagree fully with it theologically, a healthy member of the religous family. I am a Christian and thus I do not believe in the Koran. It is true that the Muslims have a special respect for believers in the book. But when you state that you have to mention that that respect is limited. The very book that gives Christians and Jews a special place also states that it is Godly to treat them as second class citizens and the dhimmi laws are still practiced and are still being installed. The recent case of the Canadian journalist who died in Iran is a perfect example.Families of people who are killed often get financial compensation rather then the criminal receiving prison time. There are aspects of that law that are attractive. The repulsive portion of the koran practice is that they give non Muslims half the amount of money that Muslims receive. When you talk of the respect that people of the book receive from the Muslim faith you have to give the whole picture. Muslims are considered fully human. People of the book are considered a step down. Atheists and people of faith that are not of the book are basically a step above animals. And this belief system is reflected in their law books. Not all Muslims practice their faith this way. Centuries ago you could argue that the Muslim faith as practiced by the governments that sprang from that faith were superior to the ones that were operating in the Christian world. Especially how they treated the Jewish faith. But those arguments are silly in todays world. There are many individual Muslims who are the salt of the earth and who I could learn lessons from. But Sharia law is a threat to humanity.It has not left the middle ages.The very fact that if I wrote this in the middle east I would be killed should prove my point.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: kevinP on March 28, 2005 12:48 PM

For too long, I've sat quietly by and watched liberals rationalize the death of the defenseless. They call it choice, they call it compassionate and say its enlightened. Get Free PS2 BIOS

It is no such thing.Get Free PS2 BIOS

A society that is complicit in the deaths of its most defenseless members is a society that cannot long stand. Therefore, I refuse to remain quiet any longer. A society that embraces this death is a society that someday soon will embrace your death and my death as well.Get Free PS2 BIOS

If that makes me a right-wing religious wacko, fine. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Baja on March 28, 2005 12:53 PM

It's the practice that worries me. I don't see Buddhists and Christians flying jets into tall buildings. I don't see them beheading hostages and making videos. Ambon,Kosovo, Armenia, Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Lebanon ,Kashmir, Philippines,
Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Iran - there is hardly a Muslim country, or a country where muslims have migrated, that is not plagued by terrorism. Why?
Christians follow the teachings of Jesus. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 01:01 PM

Alan Dershowitz, David Boies, Ralph Nader, Lanny Davis -- all part of the hysterical religious right of the Republican party ?Get Free PS2 BIOS

No, they're Democrats who have been very public about being on the side of the Schindler parents.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I am a Democrat on the side of the parents. I know plenty of others who are as well. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Your argument doesn't make any sense to me. Please don't lump everyone who isn't siding with Michael Schiavo as some kind of Christian fundamentalist.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: vbalfour on March 28, 2005 01:18 PM

Forgot to add Joe Lieberman who wants to reinsert Terri's feeding tube. Nader is not a Democrat, but he definitely wants to err on the side of life in this case.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: vbalfour on March 28, 2005 01:20 PM

Dan,
You seem a well-meaning person, so I think I might be able to save you some time. Kat is not having a debate with you, she's screeching her hatred of muslims once again. I mention this if you were under any misaprehension that she's open to rational argument (if you think it worth your time to argue with irrational hatred, please forgive this unsolicited interuption). You can mention the incitement to death in the bible, you can mention that anti-abortion bombers who cling to the bible as justification, you can mention that muslim leaders who continue to preach against terrorism in the name of islam, all will be to no avail - kat or some other moron here will end up calling you a terrorist-loving anti-semite.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Franky on March 28, 2005 01:21 PM

Dan, listen to Franky. He's right. So is Ruth. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Let's try this again---everyone now has an opinion on poor Terri Schiavo. But some believe only their opinion is valid and would have the fed gov push their decision on the family. Most of the country doesn't agree that is correct. The fact the Nader agrees with someon like mullah kat simply illustrates Jarvis's point: the extrmists on each side are more alike than the vast middle. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Christians indeed follow the teachings of Christ---when convenient. I'll wager that kat has not followed Jesus' advice on wealth: "Distribute it among the poor and the needy and your worries will go. Accumulate instead the wealth of God's grace through love of your fellow men." Right.Get Free PS2 BIOS

But she and many others like her---not all Christians of course, just a very small but VERY LOUD minority---would cherry-pcik His teachings, interpret them the way they and their friends like, and use the government to force the rest of us to heel. The vast majority of Christans are decent, kind people. The vast majority of muslims don't fly planes into buildings. But a small group of extremists in each camp would have you believe other are all monsters. And the screech-fest goes on.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 01:34 PM

Kat,Get Free PS2 BIOS

You're falling prey to the logical fallacy of generalization; that is, specific examples are taken to be representative of the entire population. One could do the same thing with Christians (and/or those who claim to be Christians) whose use of religion extends to violent acts.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Whether you're talking about Islam or Christianity, however, the bad actions of a minority cannot be used as a logical/valid condemnation of the religion as a whole.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 01:38 PM

Hubris, kat is not falling prey to the logical fallacy of generalization; she's a master of it. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 01:42 PM

Religion has nothing to do with reality. It's for those who need help in coping with reality.Get Free PS2 BIOS

This Schiavo case has to do with one thing - the husband believes he is carrying out Terri's wishes. Why else would he fight this for 15 years?!?! Why not just walk away and say to the parents, fine, you want her empty vessel, you got her. He has the conviction of belief that Terri would not want to "live" this way. And trust me, breathing alone does not constitute life.Get Free PS2 BIOS

My fiancee and myself have exchanged very specific instructions for such situations, and are revising the living wills we each had before we even met each other.Get Free PS2 BIOS

They are to be enforced. They will not be overruled by some slobbering bible-thumping zealots (hi Kat!). Not by fucking Tom "Call me God" DeLay. Not by my parents, should they still be around. Get over it, all you people who claim to be "pro-life." This is none of your business. It is not murder, it is not cruel. It is reality. Harsh, painful, and necessary. Your fairy tales are relevant in your church on Sunday morning. Nowhere else.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Oh, and by the way, did you know that Tom DeLay's father was in a vegetative state due to an accident? The family's decision: let him die in peace, instead of keeping an empty vessel alive.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Oh, and did you know that the founder of the order of Fransiscan Monks that is praying by Terri Schiavo's bedside had a heart attack, and was also a PVS? For 12 years they cared for him at the friary. Then, they decided it was too much, and too futile. They pulled the tubes and plugs. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I bet your Green Footballs, your Powerlines, and your CSM didn't tell you that your dearest leaders are the biggest hypocrits of all, did they?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Anyway, isn't the whole point of your existence to go to heaven? Isn't that why you spend your whole lives annoying me with your hypocricy, your hatred, your intolerance?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Then WTF? Let Terri go to heaven! It's gotta be better up there, than being a sack of flesh here. Let her go.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 01:45 PM

You know, maybe the Dems (in general) have stayed out of this mess because .... they should.Get Free PS2 BIOS

BTW Kay, Timothy McVeigh wasn't a Muslim. Oh, OK, he didn't fly a plane into a building, but, come on!Get Free PS2 BIOS

Shall we being to talk about the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of God? The Crusades, 30-year War, Catholics and Protestants who had been at it for centuries in England and Ireland, on and on and on. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Linda Edwards on March 28, 2005 01:45 PM

Linda Edwards makes excellent well-reasoned points. Prepare, all you infidels, for kat's outrageous response....Get Free PS2 BIOS

And Ron. G. Greer was assigned the case. How is doing his jobs---deciding based on law beterrn two litigants----trying to be God? Seems to me Tom Delay and his buddies have that title wrapped up. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 01:49 PM

Mike: MI think Hugh Hewitt sums it up perfectly: Just substitute "Jew" for "religious right" and you'll get the picture of exactly what your tirade reminds me of.Get Free PS2 BIOS

That's a point worth making again and again. JJ may go to church, but he apparently sees the evil Religious Right as being some kind of unrelated subhuman creature that shouldn't be allowed the same privileges to democracy that the rest of us enjoy.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I was heartened this morning to hear an atheist talk out against Terri Schiavo's death as a murder. While that point might still be debatable, it does seem odd that, to many others, somehow "killing" has become simply an antiquated religious taboo, and not an all-encompassing moral and legal standard that cuts across all people and religions of the US.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: carsonfire on March 28, 2005 01:51 PM

Hugh Hewitt: always the voice of moderation and reason, after all. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 01:53 PM

Angelos, you may want to dial down on your own rhetoric ("Religion has nothing to do with reality. It's for those who need help in coping with reality.") prior to talking about hatred and intolerance.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 01:55 PM

Oh, and Terri Schiavo's FATHER pulled the plug on his own mother. After just a week.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Just a BTW, you know, a little knowledge that Kat et al probably didn't bother to acquire.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 01:59 PM

Carsonfire,
It's typical of Hewitt's demagouge logic to ask people to substitute "jew" for "religious right" but it's a total non-sequiter. Being a jew means you are of a certain ethnic group, and within that group there is every single political viewpoint represented. Being a member of the religious right is a conscious decision you have made to belong to that political group, and should be open to criticism (or have we finally got some more affirmative action in place where we can't criticise the religious right now?. So instead of substituting the word "jew", it would be more appropriate to place instead the word "communist". Of course that wouldn't garner the much-craved sympathy the religious right demand and wouldn't conjure up mental images of persecution that finally led to the holocaust. Riding on the back of the tragedy of others - very dignified and absolutely worthy of someone of Hewitt's standing.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Franky on March 28, 2005 02:00 PM

Derek, I know George Greer was assigned the case, and I'm sure he thinks he has done his job. However, he does not know what Terry Schiavo wanted or wants unless he has divine powers. I certainly have no idea what she wanted or wants--and let's be honest, neither does anyone else in this saga--which is why I would rather err on the side of life. I suspect that's what Tom DeLay had in mind as well.Get Free PS2 BIOS

By the way, just saying, "I was doing my job" is not a sufficient reason to condemn someone to death, don't you think, Derek? After all, Terry wasn't dying until the feeding tube was pulled.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ron on March 28, 2005 02:01 PM

Angelos--if your body is kept alive by machines, I can see pulling the plug. I can't see starving a person to death. No more than I can see denying a person dialysis or insulin.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 02:04 PM

Hubris--it is a very large 'minority'--not a tiny handful, but hundreds of millions. It is not just one moonbat here and there.
And Linda, too bad they waited so long to retaliate for 600 hundred years .Christianity had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam.The Crusades were that defense. Thank God.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 02:13 PM

Thanks for the reasonable response, Don. I just can't help believe there are two issues here, and many people---right, center, left---are muddling them to villify this judge. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Greer's job is not to decide life and death. It is to decide custody. He decided for Schiavo's husband, who says he was following her wishes. You make quite an unfair---one might say incendiary---leap to claim he's playing God when in fact he's weighing a decision placed before him by his appontment. Get Free PS2 BIOS

As for whether Terri was dying or not before the tube was pulled, as you put it: I, like many people, am conflicted here. I might choose differently if she were my wife. But Greer's job is to choose on the merits of arguments between two litigants based on state law. One of the reasons poeple are so upset is the over-heated rhetoric on both sides. You add fire to the flames by implying this judge is a killer because he has made a decision you loathe. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I don't know these people, and neither do you (so you've said.) The way we have agreed upon to resolve disputes among family members who disagree in such a situation is to go before a judge---like the ones who have decided this case over the years. Not before a priest or a rabbi or a mullah or shaman or wiseman or Ralph Reed or Michael Moore or Ralph Nader or Geroge and Jeb Bush or Randall Terry or anyone else.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The fact that most people as polled---including religious people---seem to agree that fed gov should not intervene and the Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube should not be reinserted doesn't make it right. But it does mean that most people side with sticking to agreed-upon rules and letting the closest next of kin---not the closest next of kin you agree with, but the closest, in this case the husband---make such a personal decision for the family. To say doing so is murder is a gross and wilfully misleading simplification.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 02:19 PM

What's the issue Hubris? I'm stating my opinion. I don't hate religious people, and I kind of have to tolerate them, as they seem to be everywhere.Get Free PS2 BIOS

But what about the sentences "Religion has nothing to do with reality. It's for those who need help in coping with reality." bothers you?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Look, here's reality.
-The alarm rings. My fiancee gets up and goes to work.
-The alarm rings an hour later. I get up and stumble downstairs to begin work.
-Work is over
-a bunch of stuff happens.
-we go to bed.
-Repeat. Get Free PS2 BIOS

That bunch of stuff includes EVERYTHING that everyone does - movies, books, paying bills, golf, gardening, house work, road trips, blah blah blah.Get Free PS2 BIOS

All the above constitutes reality.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Whether we go to church on Sunday or not, and what type of church we go to, has nothing to do with real life. Will the fact that you go to church make your mortgage holder give two shits if you can't pay? I think not.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And what happens in church? You get indoctrinated with fairy tales, to help you cope with reality. You're told that everything will be OK once you get to heaven. Doesn't matter what kind of shit hand you get dealt "down here", it's God's will. The purpose is to keep people weak and meek. Has been that way since there were stupid people and the smart people who took advantage of them. Has been since the men were afraid of the power of the life-bearing woman, so they wrote a bunch of stories and rules to subjugate her, and spread the fear of woman and the myth of the power of man.Get Free PS2 BIOS

My ancestors thought Apollo drive a chariot of fire across the sky. Well, that's since been discovered to be, um, not true. There's something called the sun you may have heard about. Hell, we had gods out the yinyang, one for everything we couldn't understand.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Just because Christianity narrowed it down to one doesn't make it any less silly. Can't explain it? To hell with scientific knowledge! God, god, god, and ignorance. That's the magic formula for white men in silly hats to exert control over the hoi polloi. Get Free PS2 BIOS

No thanks.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 02:22 PM

franky:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Your comparison of the abortion clinic bombings is absurd. 99.9 percent of christian churches condemn this as both illegal and a mortal sin. There are no mainline churches supporting this activity. Even the catholic Church, the most avid pro life church, loudly condemded this act of terrorism. Conversly, many of the most influential Muslim clerics have applauded many of the terrorist acts committed by muslims. They even use their position of influence to encourage their faithfull to repeat these foul acts.They use the koran to justify their actions. There are many christians who misuse the Bible. But those who do have been told by their leaders that their salvation is in danger and to stop this evil practice. As far as the tiny monority of Muslim clerics that correctly condemn the suicide bombers and the faithfull who videotape themselves as they butcher non combatants as they saw off the heads of their victims most of them reside outside of the middle east and have little to no influence. They also have to worry that they will be killed. Tapes of those animals that bomb those clinics are not top sellers around the Christian world. You can't say the same of the suicide bombers. None of the clinic bombers are having schools and streets named after them as they are throughout much of the middle east. Your comparison is like comparing someone with a sniffle with someone dying from aids. They are not the same and to compare them is intellectually flacid.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: kevinP on March 28, 2005 02:23 PM

KKKat defends the Crusades, that glorious moment of Christian charity, thus: "Christianity had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam.The Crusades were that defense. Thank God."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Doesn't that pearl of wisdom sound strangely similar to the jihadists explaining terrorism as a defense of the subjugation of Islam by Christianity? And therein lies the stark truth here: a pigheaded but very loud minority on each side insists on portraying the other as evil and necessary to kill. No amount of reason dissuades them. So violence continues. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat's high-speed cable should be pulled until she emerges from her persistant hateful state.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 02:25 PM

Kat, if you take me off a ventilator, you suffocate me. My lungs fill with fluid. I drown, alive.Get Free PS2 BIOS

If you take me off dialysis, my kidneys fail, and the chain reaction starts.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Why is starvation so different? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Pulling the plug is pulling the plug.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 02:25 PM

Angelos,Get Free PS2 BIOS

I have no interest in debating the validity of religious belief with you, since it has been done about 1.37 billion times on the internet thus far without convincing anyone of anything.Get Free PS2 BIOS

However, your portrayal (To hell with scientific knowledge! God, god, god, and ignorance. That's the magic formula for white men in silly hats to exert control over the hoi polloi) shows that you either know little of the breadth of the spectrum of religious belief, or you choose to ignore it.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Generalization is fun for everyone, it seems. Not very logical, though, and I would expect better of an atheist. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 02:32 PM

Terry's organs are all working--by themselves. She isn't allowed a sip of water. If she can swallow her own saliva, she can swallow a sip of water, but Michael won't allow that. She may learn to swallow or something.
Derek, I don't usually reply to children playing games and calling names, but children can be educated.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htmGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 02:38 PM

Kat claims all of Mrs. Schiavo's organs are working---but forgets that her brain is profoundly damaged. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat forgets that a sophisticated feeding tube IS life-support. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat forgets that Mrs. Schiavo spells her first name Terri, not Terry. Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's the last lapse I find so surprising, given kat's otherwise exhaustive mastery of the Schiavo case and its intricate details. Perhaps kat might now spend some time educating herself instead of the rest of us.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Or she might call on Congress to legislate a new law forcing Terri Schiavo to change her first name to agree with her own preferred spelling. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat speaks----the masses laugh.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 03:11 PM

Kevinp,
You mention a number of grisly acts committed in the name of Islam and of course they deserve to be condemned. But have you looked around the third world or other countries in conflict? Brutal socieites contain brutal people so to target Islam alone is to misunderstand the situation in the world. Can we look at the atrocities in the congo or Zimbabwe or Colombia and blame islam?
Now there is a worrying but seemingly still small number of people who are leaving first world countries to join in these third world jihads (most notably from UK and France). I think this must be investigated and muslim authorities critcised, but to again focus on this is to ignore the 99% of muslims who live in accordance with the rules of these socieities.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: franky on March 28, 2005 03:16 PM

Franky, Derek-
Thanks, after looking through some comments of K's, I think you're probably right.
I mean, defending the crusades? I can't even think of a priest (and in a seminary, I come across many) that would do that.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 03:21 PM

"Kat forgets that a sophisticated feeding tube IS life-support"Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's no more "sophisticated" than a tracheotomy--a hole inserted in the windpipe to facilitate breathing. I don't think that's very sophisticated. No moving parts, no machine, no pain... How is it different from a mother spoon feeding a helpless infant?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Adam on March 28, 2005 03:32 PM

The breadth and spectrum of religious belief? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here you go:
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, who wants to stop the teaching of evolution in schools.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Ba-dum-pum.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 03:35 PM

It's a problem on forums like these, separating the legitimate criticism of religions from simple hate. Just as in discussions of Israel (and I'm a frequent critic of Israel), one can quickly pick up that there are some people who despise jews but mask their racism behind criticism of the country, in discussions on islam you quickly notice the difference between curious criticism of the religion from outright hatred of all muslims.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: franky on March 28, 2005 03:36 PM

Angelos,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Again? Get Free PS2 BIOS

Here ya go, from the atheism web:Get Free PS2 BIOS

[Hasty generalization] occurs when you form a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which aren't representative of all possible cases. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Ba-dum-pum.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 03:45 PM

Derek:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Hitting the nail on the head: "But some believe only their opinion is valid and would have the fed gov push their decision on the family." Get Free PS2 BIOS

angelos:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Your view of what goes on in a church might be true in some few cases, but really I haven't had the experience of being encouraged to be 'weak and meek', and somehow an overview of the stridently 'religious' on this post makes me think they slept through those sermons, as well as a vital few others.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Hubris, glad you also felt angelos has somewhat of an unfortunate stereotype of the church.Get Free PS2 BIOS

All: it was in the middle east that Christ's teachings took hold and the religion which Christ and the Apostles called "the Way", and we now call christianity, began. Sorry, but those people who flew planes into the trade center were the descendants of the same people who originally accepted Christ's teaching.Get Free PS2 BIOS

The strength of Christ's view was its acceptance of all men into God's household - not its domination. It appealed to those who were not rich or powerful because it was accepting and inclusive. The Pharisees tried to quell it because it undercut their position of authority. (And by the way, the biblical Ruth was a Moabite.) Forgive the 'sermon', but I can't understand why some one who reads the Beatitudes or Sermon on the Mount feels called to ostracize or condemn. And especially to call a group of people 'evil'. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Maybe I get argumentative about seeing unreasoning indoctrination and/or condemnation in the public representation of some religions. It's definitely not my understanding of Christianity or of any other religion of any standing. Get Free PS2 BIOS

But being right in my own mind I do hope won't make me unsympathetic to other points of view. Thanks, Derek. (and all).Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 28, 2005 03:57 PM

And why do you think the Crusades occurred, Dan. Should they have turned the other cheek till the caliphate was complete?
(Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.)
You'd be on your knees ,banging your head, and praising allah, Danny boy.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 04:01 PM

This is not just about the religious right. Starving this woman to death is barbaric, if you don't believe a old hippie turned health care professional like me ask Tom Harkin and Ralph Nadar. It is obscene and to justify it by saying this is what she wanted just makes it more obscene. You think this will hurt the Repulicans? I doubt you will see many Democrats wanting to campaign with Michael Shiavo and his creepy lawyer.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Terrye on March 28, 2005 04:06 PM

Mullah kat attacks. And ignores any post that reveals what a sloppy thinker she really is. If she can't even get Schiavo's name right (let alone all the other factual errors she committs) why should anyone listen to anything she says? But I forget---no one does listen. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Terrye is right about no Dems wanting to campaign with Schiavo and his lawyers. As Linda Edwards said above, Dems have largely stayed out of this mess, except to voice personal opinion, as opposed to trying to force their opinion on others. There's something new!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 04:13 PM

Franky:Get Free PS2 BIOS

If you were trying to imply that my critique of the widespread support of terrorist acts by a large portion of the leadership of the Muslim clerics and many of the governments of the middle east is a thinly veiled hate of all Muslims is cheap. In my first post I stated that not all muslims share this belief and i shared my hope that Islam would reject this support of terrorism. since you brought up the absurd notion that the clinic bombers were comparable lets imagine the situation that would make your point valid. If the pope and a huge number of catholic leadership were openly applauding these actions then you would be right. If thousands of priests were using their sunday services to encourage more bombings then you would be right. If the governments of catholic Countries were lending the vocal and financial support you would be right. If catholic organizations were using the modern tools of media to make heroes of of the bombers then you would be right. And if all these things came to pass and you came out and said that the Catholic Church is in severe shape and is is partially responsible for the violence then I would be a fool to attribute it to anti- catholic bigotry.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Instead of responding to my challenge and giving me rational arguments on why your comparison of the abortion clinic bombings and the wave of terrorism in the Mulim community are similar you resort to the old dodge of calling me a bigot. That ranks right up with " Well, your momma is fat"Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: kevinP on March 28, 2005 04:16 PM

Really Hubris? Wow, thanks, it's not like I've ever opened a dictionary before.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Still, what's your point? Get Free PS2 BIOS

I've been to services in many denominations, religions, etc. Weddings, baptisms, Easter, Christmas, whatever. I've read large chunks of the bible, though that was a long time ago. I see and hear religious people yakking on TV, in forums such as this, in letter-to-the-editors sections, in the editorials section, in front of Planned Parenthood, etc. And what do they all have in common? Ignorance, intolerance, hypocricy. Get Free PS2 BIOS

So you know what to do with your definition of "gerneralization." When I say "all ABC people are XYZ", you can make your point. When I express my opinion of organized religion, based on observation, research, discussion with others, you have no point. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Oh, by the way, you know that heartwarming story of the guy who got arrested with his son, because the son was trying to break the police barrier to bring Schiavo water? Dad is a rapist and kidnapper, who "found" god in jail. I bet Fox didn't report that part... I needed to go to one of those newspapers with that damned "liberal bias".Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 04:18 PM

Kat-Get Free PS2 BIOS

First of all, the many Parsis that I met in India might take issue with your description of Zoroastrianism as 'extinct'. (Though it did kinda irritate me that I was not allowed in their fire temples, oh well.) Get Free PS2 BIOS

Secondly, do you honestly believe that Christianity would have died out had the Crusades not occured? I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, I'm just wondering if that is indeed your take on world history. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Thirdly, "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God"* and since I often spend time on my knees praising God, I'm not sure how it would be phenomenolgically different. Get Free PS2 BIOS

(*or more properly, "the God"; "Al" is the Arabic definite article and "Lah" is from the same root as the Hebrew "Eloh" which is always presented in the royal plural as "Elohim". Please don't trot out that absurd "Allah = moon god" arguement found in many Jack Chick tracts.)Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 04:25 PM

I see and hear religious people yakking on TV, in forums such as this, in letter-to-the-editors sections, in the editorials section, in front of Planned Parenthood, etc. And what do they all have in common? Ignorance, intolerance, hypocricy.
------------
When I express my opinion of organized religion, based on observation, research, discussion with others, you have no point. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Open the dictionary again:Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's called anecdoatal evidence. You base your point here on what you've seen on TV, experienced in web discussions, and read in the paper? Nice "research."Get Free PS2 BIOS

I might as easily say that most religious people I've talked to in my life have been peaceful, kind people, and therefore religion is a force for good. That would have as much weight as your "point."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Or that most atheists with whom I have discussion on blogs employ logical fallacies; therefore, atheism must be an enemy of logic. Not very convincing, eh? Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 04:26 PM

Typo: "anecdoatal" should have been "anecdotal." My apologies.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Hubris on March 28, 2005 04:27 PM

Dan deserves credit, speaking logic into the cold stone that is Kat's brain. Warning Dan: she won't respond to anything that reveals how slovenly her thinking is. She either attacks ad hominem or just pretends your comments weren't made. Get Free PS2 BIOS

(Incidentally, you see how deep her faith in Christianity runs: without that mostly corrupt boondoggle called the Crusades, she thinks it would have faded like some cockamamie thrid-rate cult.) Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 04:31 PM

Dan, an expert historian on the Crusades has done extensive research. Read the Real History of the Crusades by Thomas Madden.
Yes, I believe the Crusades were in retaliation for 600 years of muslim persecution. The Crusades were in retaliation of 600 years of Jihad. The Christians were in danger of being wiped out--NOT muslims.
Crusades - From 1096 AD until 1270 AD
was an attempt to retake (formerly Christian)
Palestine. The Jihad continued for 1,300 years. It was an attempt to occupy Europe, Asia and Africa, and then Islamicize them. We always hear about the horrible
Christians and the Christian Crusades but
why do we not hear of the Muslim capture of
Jerusalem from the Christians in 638 AD, or of the capture of Spain about 70 years later, or of the subsequent 800 year occupation? It was the continuous jihading and the success of Jihad against Europe that forced Pope Urban II to call for the first Crusade in 1095 AD.
Not much has changed, has it?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 04:35 PM

"It was the continuous jihading and the success of Jihad against Europe that forced Pope Urban II to call for the first Crusade in 1095 AD.
Not much has changed, has it?"Get Free PS2 BIOS

WTF? 2005 and 1095 are so indistinguishable---if you're kat. Well, I wared you, Dan.....
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 04:39 PM

Kevinp,
My post was clearly addressing the subject of Kat and was in response to Dan's post. I would apologise, but I really can't see where I accused you of bigotry, so find myself slightly stumped as to how to apologise for something I didn't do.
My point was that there are extremists in all religions, that was my reference to the anti-abortionists. Further check out pretty much all white supremacist sites and you'll soon find a warped interpreation of the bible. You say that's a tiny part of the christian religion, well granted but then the fundamentalist islamists make up a tiny faction as well. You drew more examples of gruesome acts committed in the name of Islam, and I pointed out that these were occurring in violent societies and that perhaps the overall violence of the society was a better explanation than the religion. Get Free PS2 BIOS

But it must be admitted that there's few more pleasures in a forum than watching kat tackle history. Quick advice - you may want to read beyond little green footballs before you begin speaking on history.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: franky on March 28, 2005 04:44 PM

Derek, people like you are still persecuting Christians. It is all right for people like Angelos and yourself to call Christians ignorant and whatever else, but dare speak ill of islam and you leftist terrorist ass kissers piss your pants. I have better things to do than
entertain an obvious imbecile.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 04:44 PM

Derek-
I know, you warned me before. I couldn't resist her bait. And here I go again.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat-
I think knowledge of the crusades presupposes knowledge of the Muslim takeover of Jerusalem. That's kinda the "Crusades 101" version is it not? And how could one know anything about Charlemagne, the Battle of Tours etc, without realizing that Islamic armies were in Europe?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Neither the Christians nor the Muslims are blameless in the bloody history of our world. I have written (over and over and over again) that there are both positives and negatives in every religion. I believe that the real religious struggle is between those who accept other faiths and those who don't. I have met dozens of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists etc. that are not simply tolerant, but affectionate towards other faiths. Those I consider to be my brothers and sisters regardless of what they believe. And yes, I have known a few of the other sort who are dismissive of you if you don't agree with every little scintilla of their theology. I consider them to me my brothers and sisters, too, and I only hope that they find a way to be more tolerant and lose the bigotry.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Bigotry, I believe, is the greatest evil of all.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 04:55 PM

It was an attempt to occupy Europe, Asia and Africa, and then Islamicize them. Still happening today. Not much has changed. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 04:59 PM

Yes, Dan, it is, especially pretending to be something you are not while being a bigot and believing that absolves you of the bigotry. Enjoy your new buddy, Derek, he seems about your mentality.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 05:07 PM

Franky:Get Free PS2 BIOS

You refuse to address the fact of the widespread support from the cleric leadership of the Muslim faith. Any religion, philosophy or belief structure can and has produced wingnuts. The difference is whether the leadership, political and religous, embraces those wingnuts. You just ignore the facts and then you state that this isn't true for 99% of the faith. If you took a poll of all mulims 99% would not come out against the suicide bombers. If you took it in the middle east it would be only a minority. If you took a pole of american Mulim clerics you would probably be correct but if you polled clerics in the middle east it would not even be close.I wish the wise moderate Muslim clerics in the states had more influence but they have little to no influence. Ward Churchill is a nut and his political insights are a sideshow and have no real influence in this country. The Muslim clerics who support suicide bombers are among the most powerfull members of a large part of the Muslim world.Not all of it but some of the most prestigous and influential positions Your simpistic attempt to call me a LGf'er is typical. Instead of responding to my arguments you use name calling as a rhetorical device. The only times that I read LGF is if I am linked by another blog and that is rare. It sounds like you are far more familar with that site that I am. Since you didn't specifically mention one person I incorrectly assumed that your generalized slur was pointed in my direction also. If I was wrong great. I try as much as possible to respond to your idea's and what you write instead of trying to lump you into some group and use slurs instead of arguments to make my point. It is easy to say You are one of those people, thus your idea's are stupid. It may make you feel good but it doesn't lead to an exchange of thoughts, just a exchange of insults.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: kevinP on March 28, 2005 05:21 PM

Well, I have to say if this is indeed the goal of Muslims, they are doing a real bang-up job of Islamicizing Europe. According to the ultra-leftist CIA World Factbook, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Belarus and Albania are the only European nations with more than a 10% Muslim population.Get Free PS2 BIOS

That leaves only Belgium, the Netherlands, The UK, all of Scandinavia, Estonia, France, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Andorra, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Spain, Moldova, Macedonia, the Vatican, Switzerland, Romania, Italy, Ireland, Hungary, Greece, Croatia, Bosnia (and Hercegovina!), Slovenia, Monaco, Austria, Montenegro, Poland, Ukraine and any that I have forgotten to go. To beconme 10% Muslim, that is. I believe that makes a majority, right?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Look out Europe!Get Free PS2 BIOS

Of course, neither Asia nor Africa are predominately Muslim, either. But with the incredibly successful inroads into Europe, who cares?!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 05:26 PM

Are you accusing me of claiming to be something I'm not?
I just want to be clear here.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 28, 2005 05:27 PM

Kat, you didn't address my point about Timothy McVeigh. Wasn't he the dude responsible for the worst terrorist attached on the continental U.S. before 9/11? He was exacting vengence for the attack on the Branch Davidians, a Christian sect.
This didn't involve Muslims at all.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Linda Edwards on March 28, 2005 05:34 PM

kevinp,
Exactly how could you once again spend an entire post defending yourself and slurring me for an insult aimed at someone else? It's like you want to be insulted. The paragraph was clearly aimed at Kat, but you demand you're right to be insulted. Then you have the gall to say my comparing you to lgf is typical when I never accused you of bigotry and never compared you to lgf!
You mention suicide bombers and yet fail to mention that there is an occupation going of Palestinian lands (a brutal occupation that is often justified in religious tones, I might add). Does the occupation excuse the suicide bombers that target children? No. But you're being disingenous to write an entire post and not even mention that the suicide bombing is part of an ongoing conflict, as if they simply appeared for no reason.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: franky on March 28, 2005 05:36 PM

2 things Get Free PS2 BIOS

1) Okay, if you want to take the feeding tube out, then whatever...but why not let her parents or a nurse or caregiver at least try to feed her by mouth? What is the harm there? Thats not taking any kind of extreme measures. Thats just feeding her. But they aren't allowed to.Get Free PS2 BIOS

2) No test has been done on Terri S. in almost 10 years. She has had a Cat-scan, but not an MRI or PET scan. An MRI or Pet scan is much more accurate, and tells what kind of brain activity is going on. But she hasn't had one. Why not? Because her husband has not allowed it. So no one knows what kind of brain activity she has. Therefore, no one knows what she might be feeling. So why not allow those tests. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I would feel better knowing she isn't feeling anything. But without those tests, we cannot. That's a terrible gamble. If she can feel it, she is dying a horrific death. Just allow the tests.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Dirk on March 28, 2005 06:04 PM

Church history according to mullah kat: Get Free PS2 BIOS

---1095 the church launches the crusades to save Christendom from Islamic threat. Get Free PS2 BIOS

---It worked (but all too temporarily---a mere 900 years later the jihadists return!) so the Inquisition was launched to save Christians from Jews and other infidels. Kat says: thank God for it! Get Free PS2 BIOS

---Today, kat must save the world from reasonable people like dan and Linda Edwards. Because if she doesn't, who will be here to launch a new assault on the infidels who are everywhere.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Linda Edwards: kat will never address your point about McVeigh. It's too inconvenient. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Dan, you will have better luck convincing a toad with logic than you will with kat. (Thanks, kat, btw, for comparing my intellect to dan's---he seems eminently sensible. Now compare me to Linda E and I will die happy.)Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat says: "Derek, people like you are still persecuting Christians." She has about as much fact about me at her disposal as she does anything else she lectures about (at least she spells my name correctly). But for the record, I was educated 1 through 12 in Jesuit schools. (Of course, I must be a fallen and lapsed heretic Catholic---I disagree with the teachings of kat.)Get Free PS2 BIOS

And also for the record, for obvious reasons, I never said all religious people are zealots. But there certainly are zealots among them. People like you, KKKat, give Kristians a bad name. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 06:21 PM

I must say, though, isn't freedom of speech wonderful? I mean, you couldn't make up a character like kat....Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 06:30 PM

Great post. I'll be dealing with this later as well as Hewitt's call for a definition of "religious right."Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think it's time he got one...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Mumon on March 28, 2005 06:53 PM

Jeff-
Hugh Hewitt has it right. A lot of us enjoy this site because you usually sound reasonable, even if we hold a different opinions.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Derek- bullGet Free PS2 BIOS

Angelos- If you can't tell the difference between the issues of Terri and Delay's terminal parent, end of discussion. Except to point to the confidence you are inspiring in all disabled and mentally impaired.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Anyone else notice that all the threads have increased comments on this subject? About 10 times or more.....interesting subject. I commented earlier that this has something for everyone. Very complex issues. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: owl on March 28, 2005 06:55 PM

It appears that a lot of people are showing their character on this thread...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: AbyssBoy on March 28, 2005 06:56 PM

Tell me exactly what the difference is Owl...Get Free PS2 BIOS

What is the medical difference? None. A vegetable is a vegetable. Does the age matter? The life expectancy? Should Terri live to 61 also, on your and my dimes, as our insurance premiums keep going up, until her parents are dead? Well THEN be the time to end it?Get Free PS2 BIOS

What is the moral difference? In one case, the whole family agreed, or at least there was no outward fight to yammer on about, no morons on CNN and Fox to cover the "controversy." You know, like in the 30,000+ OTHER cases involving PSVs right now! Today! Get Free PS2 BIOS

In the Schiavo case, we have a family funded by... well, we don't know exactly yet. You have a Governor with Presidential aspirations who sent his thugs down to kidnap (sorry, save) Schiavo, in complete disregard of the law. He must have learned that from Dad and Bro. You have a media feeding frenzy that brings to mind MacBeth. You have a president who coulnd't roll out of bed to address the disaster in Indonesia. He and Congress haven't addressed the cases of 30,000 other PSVs in America. But hey, this is a white woman in a state religiously and politically important to Republicans.Get Free PS2 BIOS

THAT'S the difference I guess.Get Free PS2 BIOS

You should all read this, and learn something.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 08:06 PM

Franky:Get Free PS2 BIOS

You got me on the LGF point. I misread your post and I was wrong. You still have not responded to my challenge on your comparison between the suicide bombers and the abortion clinic bombers being comparable and of equal weight. "It is wrong but". No it is just wrong.Even if you want to excuse the intentuinal targeting of children in Israel as somehow ok because of the conflict then how do you explain the same tactic being used outside of Israel. And the call by major influential clerics to bring that tactic outside of Israel.War is ugly. As silly as it sounds there are rules for it.Military troops are fair game. Weapons sites are ok. Infrastructure is ok and sometimes there are unintended deaths. Even police forces can be justified. But the intentional targeting of innocents with those people being the only target and the primary goal is barbaric. And it has been justified by the religous authorities of Islam because those kids may grow up to be soldiers someday so it is ok to kill them now. The arab bloc in the UN is stopping the definition of terrorism to include those tactics because they want to continue to use them. And it has religous sanction. Another reason they can justify those killings is because of the popular notion that non-muslims are sub human and thus can be treated in a way that muslims can't be treated. I would love nothing more then to have the moderate Muslim clerics to lead a reformation that would do to the Muslim faith what the reformation did for the Christian faith.At the times of the crusades it could be argued that the Muslim faith was more advanced, culturally, then the Christian faith. But there has been little progress since those times and if I point that out then that does not mean I am a anti-muslim bigot. All this leads me back to the issue that started this whole exchange. Your example of the abortion clinic bombers is an example of a tiny fringe of the Christian community that gets no support from the vast majority of Christian leaders or the faithfull. Maybe you have something that can change my mind but so far you have given no arguments that back up your charge that the suicide bombers are looked at in the same fashion in the Majority of the Muslim community in the middle east. Bringing Palestine into the argument does nothing to back up your original comparisonGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: kevinP on March 28, 2005 08:07 PM

Here's Hal Turner, a nice Christian boy. Kat, we've found your match!Get Free PS2 BIOS

MAYBE I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THIS TERRI SCHIAVO THING THE WRONG WAY. . . . . Get Free PS2 BIOS

I've been proceeding from the assumption that she was merely a totally innocent, completely helpless woman being savagely deprived of life through slow starvation and dehydration her by an adulterous husband with the blessing of renegade courts acting in direct defiance of U.S Congress Subpoenas, . But on second thought. . . . . .Get Free PS2 BIOS

She was born a jew, but converted to Catholicism. Being born a jew makes one a racial jew no matter what religion they convert to. And seeing as racial jews are the lowest form of scum in the history of this planet, (They've been thrown out of more countries than any other race in history) maybe starving Terri to death isn't too bad a thing at all. Get Free PS2 BIOS

In fact, since there are so many other jews in Florida, doubtless many who are seriously ill from all their inbreeding and race mixing, maybe this Schiavo thing is a terrific way to set case law as an excuse to get rid of a whole slew of other jews!Get Free PS2 BIOS

I still think it would have been far more humane to simply gas her to death. But I guess after all the hoopla about "gas chambers" in Germany back in WW2, the powers that be are a bit squeamish about using that method again.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Oh well. Get Free PS2 BIOS

-- Hal Turner
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Angelos on March 28, 2005 08:13 PM

Oh no. Owl's back. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Earlier someone commented that Michael Schiavo didn't want an autopsy performed when his poor wife when she died because it would reveal broken bones and other absues she'd suffered at her husband's hand. Typical of the kind of rhetoric and ugly assumptions that have been made about the husband.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Now, this is just in: "The husband of a brain-damaged Florida woman who has been fighting his father- and mother-in-law for years in U.S. courts to allow his wife to die has ordered an autopsy upon her death, his attorney said Monday.

"It's important to let the public know the extent of her brain damage," George Felos told the media in Florida in a case that has become so volatile that the lawyers and judges in the case have received death threats."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Now, nopw wait for the owls and the kats (and other creatures of the night commeting here) trot out tired arguments that the autopsy will be a farce and blah blah blah. Because they always know the true motivations of someone they disagree with. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Of course, these are people who would impose their ill-informed views on the rest of us. Owl is right that this thread has about ten times the usual commentary---which supports JJ's view that only a relative minority of people can get worked up about even hot-button issues like abortion because such issues touch relatively few lives (those who want to have one and those who don't want them to); everyone, however, will die. And they don't want extremist busy-bodies with ulterior agendas---whether it's kat or a member of congress---anywhere near when it happens.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 09:12 PM

This is from the same story as quoted above but as posted on WorldNetDaily, that outlet of careful, balanced reporting.Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Michael Schiavo contends his wife suffered a heart attack triggered by a chemical imbalance brought on by an eating disorder, but the Schindlers suspect oxygen was cut off to the brain because he tried to strangle her."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Nice, eh? Fair and balanced. There simply is no such thing as objective fact with these people---any calumnious fantasy passes for commentary and is repeated in the echo chamber. Disgusting, even by the standards of this case. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 09:24 PM

And, do you really need to read an entire post that begins with the line "Hugh Hewitt had it right?"Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 28, 2005 09:26 PM

Linda--now using Timothy McVeigh to excuse 911, etc. is a stretch. He was one moonbat and he was not martyrized by Christians everywhere. He was condemned, unlike the terrorists who hold a huge gathering every year to celebrate the magnificent 19 gutblowers. Abortion bombers are condemned by Christian ministers. The terrorists are celebrated--even in America on the campuses of Chicago and Berkeley.
Besides I'm not convinced McVeigh acted alone. Clinton covered up Flight TWA 800 and others.
Consider these facts:
• An FBI All Points Bulletin was issued shortly after the blast for all law enforcement to be on the lookout for a late model Chevrolet pickup "occupied by Middle Eastern subjects" seen fleeing the blast area "at a high rate of speed."
• At least four witnesses have attested to seeing young men of apparent Middle Eastern appearance in front of, or in the immediate vicinity of, the Murrah Building before and right after the explosion acting in a suspicious manner.
• A confidential informant for the federal government, who was on record prior to the bombing warning of a conspiracy — of which he was a member — involving Middle Eastern and domestic terrorists to blow up federal buildings, has provided important, detailed information about the OKC attack.
• On April 19, 1995, the head of Saudi Arabia’s Intelligence Service called the CIA’s former chief of Counterterrorism Operations to report that Saddam Hussein had hired seven Pakistani terrorists (Ramzi Yousef, convicted in the World Trade Center bombing, is Pakistani) to bomb targets in the U.S., one of which was the Murrah Building.
• Prior to the Oklahoma bombing, there was no record of any domestic terrorists detonating an explosive of the size ascribed to the Ryder truck bomb, but many foreign and domestic experts on terrorism have noted the Mideast "signature" of the truck bomb.
But without explanation (then, or to this day), the FBI pulled the Mideast APB on the afternoon of April 19th. The Dallas Morning News reported on April 21st that federal agents had searched a Dallas apartment just before midnight on the 19th, seized several duffel bags, and taken several boxes from the building. It reported further that three men of Middle Eastern descent were questioned in Dallas and Oklahoma City in connection with the apartment search. The men, it said, were riding in a Chevy Blazer or Suburban, but the license plate of their vehicle was traced instead to a Chevrolet Cavalier that had been rented at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport by one of the men, a resident of New York City who was from Lahore, Pakistan.
Nothing more was ever reported concerning the men, the search, or the vehicles. But on the following day, April 20th, Special Agent Gibbons’ affidavit on the Middle East suspects was sworn before U.S. Judge Ronald L. Howland seeking a warrant to detain one Abraham Ahmad, who had left Oklahoma City for Amman, Jordan less than two hours after the bombing. "At approximately 10:43 a.m. on April 19, 1995, an American Airlines flight left Oklahoma City en route to Chicago, Illinois," says the Gibbons affidavit. "Aboard that flight was Abraham Abdallah Ahmed . During 1993 and 1994, President Clinton brought several thousand "former" Iraqi soldiers to America for "resettlement." Under angry prodding from the American Legion and the VFW, Congress expressed feeble "outrage" and called on the President to halt the program. What would be the political fallout if it were discovered that Mr. Clinton’s Iraqi "defectors" had a hand in the OKC bombing?
.Terrorist expert Neil C. Livingstone was quoted in The Globe on May 16, 1995 with this observation: "There is a remarkable similarity between the methods used by Islamic terrorists in the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, the attack on the World Trade Center, and the bombing in Oklahoma. The truckload of explosives is almost a signature or calling card and it is the weapon of choice among these groups."
Who knows??? And Terry Nicholls had just come home from the Phillipines,home of the Ramzi Yousef group. So many unanswered questions. Just buried.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 28, 2005 11:55 PM

DEREK:"Power comes from the people NOT from the divine. "Get Free PS2 BIOS

Not according to Scalia:Get Free PS2 BIOS

JUSTICE SCALIA: And when somebody goes by
8 that monument, I don't think they're studying each
9 one of the commandments. It's a symbol of the fact
10 that government comes -- derives its authority from
11 God. And that is, it seems to me, an appropriate
12 symbol to be on State grounds.Get Free PS2 BIOS

3 THOMAS VAN ORDEN, :
4 Petitioner :
5 v. : No. 03-1500
6 RICK PERRY, IN HIS OFFICIAL :
7 CAPACITY AS GOVERNOR OF :
8 TEXAS AND CHAIRMAN, STATE :
9 PRESERVATION BOARD, ET AL.Get Free PS2 BIOS

http://wid.ap.org/documents/scotus/050302perry.pdfGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Steve J. on March 29, 2005 02:16 AM

DEREK:"Power comes from the people NOT from the divine. "Get Free PS2 BIOS

Not according to Scalia:Get Free PS2 BIOS

JUSTICE SCALIA: And when somebody goes by
8 that monument, I don't think they're studying each
9 one of the commandments. It's a symbol of the fact
10 that government comes -- derives its authority from
11 God. And that is, it seems to me, an appropriate
12 symbol to be on State grounds.Get Free PS2 BIOS

3 THOMAS VAN ORDEN, :
4 Petitioner :
5 v. : No. 03-1500
6 RICK PERRY, IN HIS OFFICIAL :
7 CAPACITY AS GOVERNOR OF :
8 TEXAS AND CHAIRMAN, STATE :
9 PRESERVATION BOARD, ET AL.Get Free PS2 BIOS

http://wid.ap.org/documents/scotus/050302perry.pdfGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Steve J. on March 29, 2005 02:17 AM

Mullah Kat comes back with more even-handed reasonability. She's a bit, well....unhinged. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Linda, I stand corrected. She did respond to your question. Her answer: white supremacist Timothy McVeigh WAS an Islamic terrorist! Get Free PS2 BIOS

And of course, Bill Clinton arranged the attack. Kat, you're a rightwing Michael Moore without the charm. Do you mention that President Bush gave half of Saudi Arabia a frequent flyer pass on AF2 out of the country on 9/13 when the rest of us were grounded? (It's a conspiracy theory but what's good for the gander....) That McVeigh is dead while Osama plots against us? GWB is SO effective. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat speaks----the masses laugh even harder. Thank God, however, for the comic relief she provides in an otherwise dark time. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat. Have you ever noticed that no one, not even people who agree with you, ever defends you in these comments? Ever? Yet many comment on what a nasty little item you are? Maybe they smell the festering funk that is your hatred. It's quite ripe. Seems like readers on JJ's site have two good ears, two good eyes, and two good nostrils. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I, for one, need a stiff drink and a shower whenever I read her ranting. Now, for a Scotch.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 29, 2005 02:20 AM

Yes, Steve J., sort of sad isn't it?Get Free PS2 BIOS

I choose to hitch my wagon to the founding fathers, not to Scalia. How about you?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Want to read something funny? Check out anything above the signature "kat" above. She's one of the things that brings a smile to my face these days, though. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 29, 2005 02:26 AM

Derek, you are, plainly and simply, a cyber thug. Do you know they're (finally) starting to prosecute cyber bullies where I live? Too bad JJ doesn't run a tighter ship. Civil discourse apparently isn't high on his free speech roster.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Why am I speaking up now? Because I'm just plain sick of the cyber gang banging of people with whom you and yours disagree that occurs in thread after thread here. The Masters of Invective Rule!! Forget civility! Forget kindness or decency! But I don't laugh at You. I'm saddened by and for you and your boundless hatred. I feel sorry for you. If you were to post something without bile and invective (as you actually did in ONE post earlier today), I think you probably might actually have something to contribute. But look at all these countless 'comments' of sheer hatred you've posted. Why don't you reread your own words throughout the several Schiavo threads. Proud of yourself? Feeling pretty good now?Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Power comes from the people NOT from the divine."
I'm sure you'll discover the truth of your statement in due time, Derek. Patience. And maybe if you atone, you'll even be granted a brain the size of Kat's one day.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 29, 2005 03:44 AM

Derek:
Linda E:
Thoughtful Posts:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Appreciate your reason and humor, too bad it usually gets attacked by those few who have no wish to join in civil debate, as it interferes with dogma. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I do maintain that I find it more positive to ignore the unreasonable, but maybe that internalizes irritation, which is not a good thing. Especially since it is inflicted intentionally without a spirit of goodness. Get Free PS2 BIOS

What do you think?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 29, 2005 07:11 AM

Thanks, Ruth. I do agree. But I'm just a thug of boundless hatred as Dr. Eileen points out. She wants to prosecute me! (Even she can't rise to a proper defense of actual katty nastiness. Maybe kat's only a paralegal, though.) Poor Eileen. She can disagree forcefully with people, attack them and their credentials. But of course can't take it very well. And after so much legal training, too! Get Free PS2 BIOS

Eileen should read kat's most recent rant (can't call it a post) before she sneers at me about natural law and takes my paraphrase of Ronald Reagan (that leftwing nutjob) out of context. Maybe she DOES believe an elite in Washington can make decisions in our lives for us better than we can. So long as they have lots of doctorates from second-rate law schools it should be fine.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I did take her advice and reread several of my posts above and saw there were some shameful comments in them. Like the one in which I agreed with Eileen. Sorry everyone; one day I'll get the hang of this civility thing. Get Free PS2 BIOS

And: cyber gang-banging??? Poor victimized Dr. Eileen and thank-God-for-the-Crusades kat: these exchanges must be hard for those delicate shrinking flowers. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 29, 2005 08:16 AM

Derek, thanks for your reasonable response to my response, although I must say that you seem to be trying to set a world record on posts.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I thought about what you said all day--and read some of what you said to others; very vitriolic exchanges on all sides, from my point of view. That's no real problem, however, as long as both sides get to say "incendiary" things, because the truth is often incendiary. Get Free PS2 BIOS

The truth is, Terri Schiavo is starving to death. The truth is, she is being put to death; she is not only dying, she is being killed. The truth is, people like George Greer who make one finding of fact years ago, then refuse to be confused by further facts discovered later, are too insecure and unreasonable to be effective judges in such a case.Get Free PS2 BIOS

But if you still bristle at my opinion that Greer suffers from a God-complex, consider this quote: "Essentially, then, we have arrived at the point where we starve people to death because he or she cannot communicate their experiences to us. What is this but sheer egotism? Regardless of one's religious beliefs, this is obviously an attempt to play God."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Another shrill, Religious Right wingnut, you say? I doubt it; this article comes from the Harvard Crimson, and it's not really religious at all, although it is "incendiary". Please read it in full (www.thecrimson.com/today/article506716.html; the title is FOCUS: Bigotry and the murder of Terri Schiavo) before you dismiss all of us who disagree with you so casually or caustically. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Hugh Hewitt did have it right; you're the one who truly and sadly doesn't get what's going on here--unless you wish to be associated with the horrible purposes of End-of-Life Choices. For your sake, I devoutly hope that is not true of you.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ron on March 29, 2005 08:52 AM

Ron, thanks again---I don't think you're a rightwing nutjob. I agree that trying to get to the truth can be incendiary---it's a nice turn of phrase.Get Free PS2 BIOS

As I said, I have my own personal doubts about the Schiavo case (and Cruzan and Karen Ann Quinlan all those years ago.)Get Free PS2 BIOS

I'm very conflicted about whether not feeding her is right or wrong. I'm not a doctor or ethicist or any other death-and-dying expert. I doubt you or many others here are---if I'm wrong, apologies. Get Free PS2 BIOS

But to call removal of this woman's feeding tube murder is not correct. It's is a very unusual circumstance, a horrible judgment call, with no good choices. Many elderly people don't eat toward the end of their lives---and eventually die. Would failing to force-feed them be murder? Is removing a simple breathing tube from someone who will otherwise die murder? Get Free PS2 BIOS

It's not, really. I sympathize with your position and the situation, a thousand times worse, of the Schindlers, in this case. What I don't agree with are claims that this young woman is, after fifteen years, being "put to death" or "murdered." Get Free PS2 BIOS

If this judge (and the dozens of others who've been involved with the case had chosen the opposite way) I wouldn't be calling for the feeding tube to be removed anyway, and I doubt protesters would be in front of the hospice doing so. Get Free PS2 BIOS

So it isn't that I want Terri Schiavo dead (what a ridiculous thought). It's just that I don't think the decision is your or mine to make, and I think that saying she's being murdered is as callous and wrongheaded as saying she isn't really alive right now. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Neither is exactly correct, which is why the case is so tragic and has caught everyone’s attention. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 29, 2005 09:14 AM

"Kat. Have you ever noticed that no one, not even people who agree with you, ever defends you in these comments? Ever?"Get Free PS2 BIOS

I can only speak for myself, but I've been remaining quite and wishing for the personal attacks to cease. Any reasonable points are lost in the crossfire. Why don't we leave the individual out of it.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: AbyssBoy on March 29, 2005 10:18 AM

quite = quiet, damnitGet Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Spelling Abyss on March 29, 2005 10:20 AM

Derek, Ron-
Kudos for disagreeing reasonably. One thing that I think everybody can agree on is there is no good outcome for this tragic case. People are going to disagree, sometimes heatedly. That's not just okay, but it's what keeps democracy alive and vibrant.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat-
This might be futile, but if there is any common ground to be reached between us, it'll be worth it.
The group "Free Muslims Against Terrorism" is organizing an anti-Terrorism march (details in quotes below). This, I pray, is the future of Islam - Muslims who know that the 'greater jihad' is inside them, Muslims who are appalled at the sickening light in which bin Laden and his ilk has cast their faith, Muslims who know that remaining true to their faith means loving those of other faiths. As the Qur'an says:Get Free PS2 BIOS

"We sent down the Torah which contains guidance and light...Later, in the train of Prophets We send Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which has been sent down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light...Unto to you [O Muhammad] this writ and a way and a pattern of life, confirming what were revealed before…Unto everyone of you have We appointed a different law and way of life. And if God had so willed He could surely have you all made one single community professing one faith. But He wished to try you and test you. So try to excel in good deeds" (Qur'an: 5:44-48).

Here are the details of the march:Get Free PS2 BIOS

"March Against Terror and For Freedom and DemocracyGet Free PS2 BIOS

The Free Muslims Against Terrorism are proud to announce that on May 14th 2005, Muslims and Middle Easterners of all backgrounds will converge on our nation’s Capital for a rally against terrorism and to support freedom and democracy in the Middle East and the Muslim world. This will be the first rally of its kind in Washington DC that is lead by Muslims and Middle Easterners. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Join us in sending a message to the extremists and supporters of terrorism that we reject them and that we will do all we can to defeat them.Get Free PS2 BIOS

We also want to send a message of hope to the people of the Muslim world and the Middle
East who seek freedom, democracy and who reject authoritarianism and the use of violence that we are with them and that we will do all we can to support them.Get Free PS2 BIOS

This rally is NOT limited to Muslims and Middle Easterners. All people are welcome to join us. We request anyone and everyone who supports our message to join us at the rally. We want to send a message to the extremists and terrorists that American Muslims, Christians, Jews and people of all faiths are united against terrorism and extremism.Get Free PS2 BIOS

We welcome all endorsers and we ask that you circulate and publish this message to as many groups and people as possible. Help us make history."
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 29, 2005 10:55 AM

Eileen,
you're one of the worst here for smears and attempts to intimidate those you don't agree with. exactly how many people have you called a terrorist or anti-semite and then ran away when called out to provide evidence? didn't you also threaten to alert the CIA to some innocuous post someone had written? You're the ultimate smear and run artist. Kat's a racist and I'm glad that the whole forum is being shown her true nature. But you see racism in Kat and then say "maybe if you atone, you'll even be granted a brain the size of Kat's one day." It seems you've been outed too.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: franky on March 29, 2005 11:27 AM

Franky--you are the biggest Jew hating racist there is. You'd gladly kill off every last Jew if you could. You are a bigot who believes in slamming Christians and Jews and defending terrorists. You are slime and I feel dirty just replying to you.
And as for you dan, when you joined forces with an imbecile, you lost all credibility with me. In fact I think you are a poser for muslims pretending to be a Christian. I have more contempt for the likes of you than Derek. Derek is an outright bigot, you hide behind the guise of Christianity. I'm done with you and your ilk. You want to call each other schoolyard names, be my guest. There are plenty of other forums where you don't post your crap.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Kat on March 29, 2005 12:44 PM

Kat-
I'll repeat to you what I said to Cat Dancing (and we eventually came to an understanding). If you have doubts about my faith, you ought to bring them to the priests at my seminary, who will be granting my my M. Div. at the end of next year.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I have no contempt for you. Though we disagree, you are still my sister in Christ and are desrving of my love.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 29, 2005 12:57 PM

At least kat has moderated her rhetoric.Get Free PS2 BIOS

She calls Franky a jew-hater, Dan an imbecile muslim terrorist in Christian disguise---I'm one too, and a bigot. And she's done with our "ilk" for calling people names....priceless!Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 29, 2005 01:02 PM

It's simply incredible that she any supporters or even dares to defend herself when you play Hewitt's game (but this time in a way that makes sense): go over Kat's comments and substitute the word "muslim" for "black" "jew" "chinese" etc. But I guess it's not racist if it's directed at muslims.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Franky on March 29, 2005 01:20 PM

Dan, Derek:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Who said 'love them who persecute you, it'll drive them crazy'? but honestly, I admire your good temper.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Franky, Derek:Get Free PS2 BIOS

Forgive me, but I have to chuckle at bragging about so-described large brain, it's usually a symptom of swelling, meaning hydroencephaly or hemorrhage. Hope the feeding tubes ... no, no, I am staying away from that one.Get Free PS2 BIOS

And I still say, how can anyone hate the people who were the first to be receptive to Christ's message, and call themselves Christians? It was by opening what had been exclusively Jewish religion to the 'gentiles', who happened to be the middle easterners of their region, that the original Christians became a religion of note. And of course called their teachings "the Way", not Christianity. Get Free PS2 BIOS

By the way, just in case anyone doesn't realize it, at that time the Saxons and Angles were painting their faces blue and wearing skins, Vercingetorix was beating up on the Roman invaders, etc.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 29, 2005 01:22 PM

Ruth-
Thanks. It's admittedly difficult to reign in my temper at times, but when all is said and done, and people like Kat and me are both "face to face" (to use St. Paul's terminology) with God, I believe that we'll see that there was a plan for the both of us. And that the plan involved dialogue with one another to realize that we're not so different after all.
For one thing, I think she and I both agree that if we ever find ourselves in the tragic position of Ms. Schiavo, leave the tube in. Maybe that could start a positive dialogue between us (hoping against hope, but it worked with Cat Dancing).Get Free PS2 BIOS

Derek-
You are indeed a "thug of boundless hatred" and I want nothing to do with you.
(hee hee)
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 29, 2005 02:00 PM

Derek,Get Free PS2 BIOS

I said to you: "If you were to post something without bile and invective (as you actually did in ONE post earlier today), I think you probably might actually have something to contribute."Get Free PS2 BIOS

Your post to Ron proved me right. Many of your comments were reasonable, fair minded and compelling, in my view. All without one personal insult. Thanks. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 29, 2005 02:36 PM

He is arguing that only one side holds a moral argument. No, both sides have moral arguments but they are different arguments. There is not just one-true-way, or at least there's no way for us to know what it is... yet.Get Free PS2 BIOS

This is what really sticks out for me.... That is really one thing that I will always be a fault I can't look past. Simply disregarding all beliefs in opposition to your own does little but undermine your own validity.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Tea Kettle on March 30, 2005 01:49 AM

Dan, self-professed man of God (which could be a very good thing, indeed) said:Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Derek-
You are indeed a "thug of boundless hatred" and I want nothing to do with you.
(hee hee)"Get Free PS2 BIOS

Are they teaching unkind, twisted word sarcasm texts in seminary schools these days? I spoke to Derik with angst and a plea for basic civility to discourage his incessant and extremely personalized Kat-bashing. I called him out in his own lingo to (hopefully) get him to understand. It was painful for me to do so. Might I have found a better way? Probably. I am saddened by my own ability to find it. Might he have found a better way?Get Free PS2 BIOS

You and I both know we have never even exchanged words, but you were instantly in a piling on mode vis a vis me. And you were just as quick to 'jump' on Kat (after 'reviewing a few of her posts' at Derik's request - apparently those he didn't agree with) and lovingly embrace the Derik/Ruth/Franky/etc. Masters of Invective pack.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Kat does not hate all Muslims. Kat points out facts that some don't wish to hear regarding Islamists. They are Our enemy in Our Current War (believe it, folks). They killed thousands of us here in the U.S. She attempts to educate..... Get Free PS2 BIOS

Man of God, dan? If so, Oh my God.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I question your faith as well. If you are of Light and Love, show it! Express it. Be it.Get Free PS2 BIOS

But you know what? If you Were in fact 'of' it, I wouldn't even have to ask to see it from you.Get Free PS2 BIOS

[For once I ask the pack to step back. Let dan respond without you coming in to decimate 'the challenger'. And If you cannot restrain yourselves,...., I'm sure 'the Guys' will be listening nonetheless.]Get Free PS2 BIOS

Back to Terri. I'm quite certain the Guys are beyond saddened by her plight and by all that's not right with respect to her sad case - from every perspective we could ever even hope to imagine. No one has the answer here. To denigrate those who disagree with you is.......simply sad. And all of our discussions here emanate from her. May her soul light our world in life, death and eternity. Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 30, 2005 06:07 AM

Didn't know we were part of a cabal. Missed you at the last secret meeting, Dan. Who brings the three-bean salad next time? You, Ruth?Get Free PS2 BIOS

Dr. Eileen, ya'll ought to ease off the paranoia pedal a bit. Ganging up on you? I know it's going to be hard, but don't flatter yourself so much. It's just that your commentary is an industrial-strength magnet for sharp criticism. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Now, I'm off on a business trip to a land mercifully far away from the clown-show....Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Derek on March 30, 2005 11:13 AM

Eileen-Get Free PS2 BIOS

I'm sorry if I offended you, 'twas only a joke to Derek. I really didn't want to pile on you, and I apologize if my attempt at a witticism with Derek was taken that way. I just liked that turn of phrase, and wanted to share a little levity in here. Again, sorry to offend.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Mea culpa.Get Free PS2 BIOS

On the other hand, it was Shelly who called me a 'man of God', not me. I would never proclaim myself such. I'm a sinner that falls short of God just like everybody else.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I think that you, Derek, Kat and I all can agree that radical Islamists are the bad guys here. I agreed with Kat's point about Islam being in dire need of reform. I have spent post after post trying to find some common ground with her, to no avail. If some of my more heated words in her direction (I'm certainly not blameless, I'm just as flawed as everyone) have prevented that, then I'm sorry. I apologize for any mistaken notion I may have about her, and extend the olive branch in her direction. Get Free PS2 BIOS

And yours.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Peace.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 30, 2005 12:16 PM

Derek:
You wrote: Didn't know we were part of a cabal. Missed you at the last secret meeting, Dan. Who brings the three-bean salad next time? You, Ruth?Get Free PS2 BIOS

How dare you, sexist anti-feminist swine, what, you're too good to make your own salads, relegate ME to the servant role, oh paragon of evil intentions ... there, think I can make it on the Dark Side Cabal??? Have a good trip.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Dan: Get Free PS2 BIOS

"Thug of boundless" depravity or whatever was funny. Anyone who can't see the humor is lacking a great deal of perspective. May your good will spread.
Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 30, 2005 01:36 PM

Whomsoever makes the three-bean salad, can I request a bean other than green beans? I think they're out of season and I can't stand canned.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 30, 2005 02:58 PM

dan,Get Free PS2 BIOS

Many thanks for your explanation and words of kindness. I am also grateful for the respite from kat bashing we've enjoyed for a brief while. The Guys know she can use it.Get Free PS2 BIOS

Peace be with you as well.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 30, 2005 03:08 PM

Eileen-
Maybe I missed it in a previous post, but who are "the Guys"?Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 30, 2005 03:09 PM

Dan: Get Free PS2 BIOS

MCP! Get your own beans then! Sorry, I'm still on my DSC mode. I've really been having too much fun today. Oh, in case you haven't noticed it, those who 'dish it out' don't comprehend when it doesn't have the desired effect.Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Ruth on March 30, 2005 06:26 PM

dan,Get Free PS2 BIOS

That is my affectionate term for the divine and it extends to all souls - for I believe we are One. I am a spiritualist, so it also refers to God by any name in any religion which leads one to the divine.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I don't believe in piling on in a blog or anywhere else for that matter. And I don't believe in 'dishing it out' regularly to those with whom one disagrees. It's hurtful, unkind and unnecessary. It's toxic. I doubt the sarcasm and insults would be strewn so liberally in face to face discussions. And jokes are great as long as they're not offered at someone else's expense. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I knew very well when I challenged Derek in his own language regarding Kat that the attack would be diverted my way. That's okay; that was my intention. And I'd do the same for anyone else here or elsewhere similarly verbally maligned. Get Free PS2 BIOS

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Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 31, 2005 04:13 AM

Eileen-
I like that. You know, God is always referred to in the plural throughout the Hebrew scriptures (elohim).Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: dan on March 31, 2005 09:05 AM

Hmmm.. That's very interesting on a number of levels (mostly personal ones which relate to how I came to adopt the term and ultimately 'learn' its acceptability). Perhaps some day I'll finish a book (or screenplay) where that will all be spelled out. And no, I didn't know that, so thanks. Confirmation arrives in myriad, unexpected ways...Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Eileen on March 31, 2005 12:29 PM

Well Terri has died after a torturous two weeks for her and anyone else who thinks that was a barbaric way to go.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I just hope and pray that some day VERY SOON there is a complete investigation into all the facts surrounding the day she went into a comma, her treatment, therapy or rather lack of it....what people who knew her have to say about her marriage etc., besides the obnoxious, arrogant Schiavo brothers...that equally objectionable George Felos and the tyrant Greer. Get Free PS2 BIOS

Rather than everyone being upset that the government tried to help save a life, why aren't people upset that judges... one man or even a dozen have absolutle power over us. Not the entire conress, the president or a governor could
save Terri. Even if you thought the best thing was her death as quicklky as possible. Didn't it bother you just a little that a few men have all this power. Get Free PS2 BIOS

I have throught about the over reaching power of judges for a long time. This case really brings it glaringly to the public's attention. I think many of the Supreme Court decisions are astounging. I can't wait to hear what they come up with when they decide the Eminent Domain case.Get Free PS2 BIOS

I hope the Terri Schiavo tragedy makes people think about more than end of life scenarios and living wills. The fact that three men killed a woman's child, a father's daughter, a brother and a sister's sibling and that the entire Catholic Church, Christian right,Jessie Jackson, millions of good and compassionate people, the congress, the president and a governor could not save her, whether you believe she should have been dead and buried a dozen years ago should make you sit up and take definite NOTICE!! Get Free PS2 BIOS

Get Free PS2 BIOS Posted by: Liz Elder on March 31, 2005 06:27 PM

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