BuzzMachine

Oh fer Chissakes, Jeff.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

What's next, cherry bombs in the locker room toilets or a water balloon fight in the cafeteria?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Mumblix Grumph on April 27, 2005 08:16 AM

Ferchrissakes back: It's funny. (I refer here to Zimmer's PC comment in the related post below.)Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

But seriously... The guy is a slime and symbolism matters and holding hands with him is, uh, not too wise, politically. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

And it's also funny.
Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Jeff Jarvis on April 27, 2005 09:02 AM

None of the new pictures comes even close to this one:Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

http://img129.echo.cx/img129/8274/busharab4ms.jpgSerialnumber afterburn 3.2

And yeah it's funny, but what's important regarding the picture is what Justin Logan commented about it.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Name Withheld on April 27, 2005 09:13 AM

Which PC/funny comment is that, Jeff? All I've been commenting on (I think) is trying to understand how you find it "regrettable" - which I think I now understand you to mean that he'll regret the political/media aftermath. I'm just searching for precision/meaning in your original post.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Michael Zimmer on April 27, 2005 09:15 AM

Funny how the "conscience" of the Democratic Party, Jimma Carta, can give a tongue bath to arch terrorists, communist strongmen, and other disgusting and assorted dictators, anti semites and anti American scum and you can hear a pin drop over the outrage.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Whatever. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Do i like the fact that Bush doesn't push the Saudi scum harder? Yeah, but tell me a President in the past 50 yrs who has had a bad word to say about SA.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Howard on April 27, 2005 09:44 AM

Howard, I thought 9/11 changed everything. And with 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers and Usama Bin Laden (remember him?) himself being from Saudi Arabia and a lot of the money sponsoring terrorism coming from Saudi Arabia I would have guessed that at least something would have changed? Well something has changed, most of the US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia has left since 9/11 (wasn't that one of the thing that Bin Laden wanted?).Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Name Withheld on April 27, 2005 10:03 AM

Jeff, have you ever thought of the possibility that Bush is simply trying to win Andrew Sullivan back? :)Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: John on April 27, 2005 11:32 AM

Despite all complexities, this is a reminder of how long ago we were able to be respectful to each other without regard to perspective. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Heart over body.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Jason Newcomb on April 27, 2005 11:47 AM

Umm ... no one so far has mentioned that in the Arab world men hold hands in public all the time - without any sexual overtones.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

So, let me see .... Bush acts in a way that demonstrates awareness and respect for other cultures and he gets slammed for it??Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

I'm no fan either of this president or of the House of Saud, but if you all think things would be rosy if the Kingdom collapsed in chaos I want some of what you're smoking. Start with a collapse of European economies and watch that ripple out around the world.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Cancel that request for some of what you're on - it's going to be a roller coaster for the next few years in any case. I plan to keep my own head clear.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Robin Burk on April 27, 2005 02:50 PM

No one seems to have noticed what I noticed. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Yehudit on April 27, 2005 04:45 PM

"something has changed, most of the US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia has left since 9/11 (wasn't that one of the thing that Bin Laden wanted?)."Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

All of them. Now we surround SA instead of being inside it. I think a stronger position.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Yehudit on April 27, 2005 04:46 PM

So, maybe Bush should mount an invasion of Saudi Arabia to overthrow Abdullah and the rest of the House of Saud.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

After all, can't have him look like he "coddles" dictators, eh? Oh, wait. It seems like all the people who're so "outraged" about this hand-holding "incident" were lining up to be the loudest to shout against the toppling of Saddam Hussein.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, I guess.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Vincent on April 27, 2005 05:55 PM

Vincent -- Yes, because there really is no middle ground between invasion and granting special public favors to a dictatorship's leaders, is there?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Matt Welch on April 27, 2005 06:21 PM

Really -- and it should've been pretty obvious -- that my point re: Saddam was merely meant to highlight the simple, plain fact that the people who're so "angry" at Bush for "coddling" Crown Prince Abdullah because the Saudis are a dictatorship have heaped absolutely nothing but derision upon the President for actually removing a dictator from power. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Indeed it's worth noting that many of these people were, in fact, in favor of removing the sanctions regime from Iraq altogether during the Clinton Administration, granting Saddam Hussein a de-facto pardon for his invasion of Kuwait and subsequent bloody reprisals against those people within his borders. So much for "coddling."Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

So it seems that all this "outrage" is all a bit manufactured. That the President -- who is routinely pilloried for eschewing diplomatic means -- has chosen to not trash US-Saudi relations and has instead chosen to treat with respect a foreign head of state who happens to control a large amount of one of the world's most crucial resources in order to ease the monetary burden at the gas pump for ordinary Americans (to say nothing of the greater effects cheaper petroleum has on the economy at large) is not something to be scorned. Or it shouldn't be.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

But the usual crowd would be screaming if Bush did nothing to ease gas prices, and probably throw a few "big oil conspiracy" tidbits into the mix for good measure, just as they're screaming now over an almost entirely constructed scandal (replete with hints of homophobia, to boot, I'll note. Tsk tsk that a man should hold another man's hand!).Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

But that's politics, eh? Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Vincent on April 27, 2005 07:21 PM

Yes, because there really is no middle ground between invasion and granting special public favors to a dictatorship's leaders, is there?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Pretty much no, actually, it seems. Especially when said dictatorship runs a cartel artifically raising the price of oil, but even when not. Who can forget the fun of Madeline Albright sucking up to Kim Jong Il? That sort of nasty playing nice with dictators pretty much comes with the territory of diplomacy. Refuse to do it (see John Bolton's comments about North Korea) or call a dictatorship "evil," and the diplomats jump all over you. Yglesias is one of those who has wanted Bush to emulate Clinton's approach on the DPRK; hugs for Kim Jong Il?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

One is forced to accept some hypocrisy in foreign affairs, grating though it is. Has happened under all Presidents, especially with Saudi Arabia. We've been moving forward rather than back in the last twenty years (democratization of the ROK, ROC, South Africa, Philippines, end of the Cold War and many of the nasty alliances such as in Africa), so one accepts some amount. Can't do everything at once, after all. Can't even threaten everyone at once. But things are generally moving forward in the region. (Including in Bahrain and Kuwait.)Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

We can't abandon Saudi Arabia totally until we've set the strategic stage elsewhere in the Middle East. If you think it would happen under any other President, you're mistaken. Strategic considerations. But we've been slowly disengaging and pressuring surrounding countries to liberalize.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: John Thacker on April 27, 2005 07:47 PM

Vincent -- Your "simple, plain fact" does not, in fact, apply, simply or otherwise, to me.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

John -- I agree that it's impossible to conduct foreign policy without being hypocritical (and without being slammed in every which direction while doing so); it's the price of accepting responsibility and exerting power. But there is a vast gulf between choosing to engage with the House of Saud, and literally kissing up to the evil bastards. No other world leader has been invited to Crawford twice. I'd guess no other world leader was also able to successfully demand male drivers from the airport, and to demand that Jewish U.S. servicemen be prohibited from holding religious services on Terra Sauda. If Saudi citizens are ever free during our lifetimes, they will look back at these disgusting photos like Romanians remember the Queen kissing the ass of Ceausescu. There's a line between realpolitik and realnogoodnik, and I have zero confidence that this administration is on the right side of that equation vis-a-vis the world's leading exporter of Islamo-nutbaggery.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Matt Welch on April 27, 2005 09:00 PM

What then, Mr. Welch, is your solution?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

It's all very well and good to complain about the President's diplomacy, but none of the people who're doing the complaining have offered much more than "tell them to screw themselves" (a pearl of wisdom from Oliver Willis) or vagueries about "keeping them at arm's length" and other such useless platitudes.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

What would you have the Administration do?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Vincent on April 27, 2005 09:33 PM

As an addendum, I apologize if you feel that I misrepresented your positions re: Saddam Hussein, etc.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

My comment, like the one you originally replied to, was meant more generally and was not specifically aimed at you. Most of the yelling over this "flap" has come from the likes of Oliver Willis and other reflexive Bush critics, to whom my comments were directed.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

But again, I apologize. It was certainly not my intention to offend by misrepresenting your positions.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Vincent on April 27, 2005 09:39 PM

Vincent -- I would hope that we are allowed to criticize brazen American ass-kissing of dictatorial nasties without providing a 12-point program for overhauling bilateral relations. I have written a half-dozen columns about this specific issue, and even included a recommendation or two; unfortunately I'm on too much deadline to even look them up.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Short-term:
* Don't invite any Saudis to Crawford, ever. Crawford is seen as a reward for personal friendship; Prince Abdullah is the only one to go there twice, and the jerkbag Prince Bandar (or "Bandar Bush," as he's known around Kennebunkport), has gone there as well. Don't give them that domestic P.R. victory (which is also a slap in the face of domestic Saudi reformers, like the three poor bastards rotting in jail for advocating for free elections).
* Don't stage a hands-holding photo-op. Don't issue joint statements that spend more time talking about Israel than Saudi Arabia. Don't apologize for *anything* that the U.S. has done with Saudi Arabia, *ever*, let alone our tightening of the notorious Visa Express program.
* Make all U.S. aid & arms sales conditional on basic human rights reform, freeing of political prisoners, and moves in the direction of democracy. Better yet, cancel those arms sales and aid altogether.
* Insist that every U.S. ambassador from now on speak fluent Arabic.
* Barring issues of state-sponsored terrorism & violence, make sure that every reform we urgently push on the Palestinian Authority is equally matched by an equal push for reform in Saudi Arabia.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Gotta run now.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Matt Welch on April 27, 2005 10:27 PM

Of course we're allowed to criticize anything we want. Personally, I'd prefer that critics offer solutions -- or at the very least, constructive criticism -- rather than simply sniping.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

So thanks for finally offering some constructive criticism.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Vincent on April 27, 2005 11:08 PM

and you point Name Withheld? you then wd propose the ending of all aid to Egypt (4 of the 19 were Egyptian on 9/11)? and what do you suppose Bush should do when meeting the Saudi king? oh i know you're one of those "Iraq didn't do anything, we should have gone after Saudi" types hmm?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

but of course if we went after SA, which wd have been less then meaningless you wd have been the first one on the "No blood for oil in SA" bandwagon, right? of course.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Bush - there is nothing he can do that is right in the eyes of our intellectual betters, the "progressives", who have aligned themselves time and time again with autocrats and thugs, and squarely against democracy.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Yawn.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Howard on April 27, 2005 11:17 PM

Howard, I support the war in Afghanistan because it's about getting rid of Al Qaeda and their supporters/backers. But instead of actually doing their best to find Bin Laden Bush decided to go to Iraq instead, the reason for that could be one of many but it didn't have a lot to do with 9/11. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

No I don't alliance myself with thugs, you seem to do that though. Saddam wasn't a nice guy, but he wasn't the first in line of dictators to be defeated either. The latest reason for the war in Iraq was to give the people of Iraq freedom, I'm guessing the oppressed people in Saudi Arabia now fully knows what their chance for freedom is. I also wonder what the US would do if there was a public uprising in Saudi Arabia?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

And about Egypt, yes you should punish the ones responsible. Bush is acting more like some schoolkid getting hit by one boy and deciding to hit another kid instead.
Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Name Withheld on April 28, 2005 05:05 AM

Uh huh. So in other words Iraq was a "distraction" from getting UBL? Oh OK. And to support this your evidence is?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

(sound of crickets)Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Nothing. Let's move on shall we?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Saddam wasn't a nice guy? Really? I would say Saddam was a psychotic murderer, who was filthy rich with his petro dollars and had a really nasty habit of 1) spending big bucks on WMD, 2) was acutely interested in getting nukes, 3) attacking neighbors and 4) killing kurds, shi'a, jews and christians, to say nothing of being responsible for two of the worst man made ecological disasters in the past odd 50 yrs AND the destruction (dare i say attempted genocide?) of the Marsh Arabs.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

But i suppose you are right - i have a thing for dictators.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

However i understand Bush's idea of realpolitik. I don't necessary like him playing kissy kiss with the Saudis, but i understand it. Just like i understand him sweet talking the French, playing tippy toes with the Chi Coms and refusing to engage in one on one talks with the Norks. Some of which i agree with, others i don't.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

But what the heck, i'm just a dumb conservative, living in Iraq; i'm not nearly as nuanced as my Liberal betters.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Howard on April 28, 2005 06:02 AM

I'm guessing the oppressed people in Saudi Arabia now fully knows what their chance for freedom is. I also wonder what the US would do if there was a public uprising in Saudi Arabia?Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Although most Saudis complain about the boredom in their lives, very few of them need or want to work. Thousands of jobs go unfilled in the KSA because the people feel that those jobs are 'beneath' them. The average house size in the KSA is over 5,000 ft.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

Although 90% of Saudis support bin Laden, they're willing to tolerate the current government because it guarantees their upper class lifestyle. The government is willing to go to great lengths to gain this support. Terrorism has been very profitable for the Saudis. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2

The Saudi people know that 'freedom' would mean that they would have to work and they don't want to do that. The Saudi government and the Saudi people will continue to support terrorism around the world until they are economically and physically unable to do so. Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: mary on April 28, 2005 12:14 PM

Howard, remember when you called Jimmy Carter "Jimma Carta?" That was stupid. Just thought you ought to know.Serialnumber afterburn 3.2 Posted by: Bob Newhouse on May 2, 2005 03:38 PM