Mourning
Just got this email from John Pederson:
Bush ordered flags lowered 6 days after the tsunami for a period of 5 days.
It only took him 1 day to drop them after 9/11. 10 days.
We are now on day 6 of Katrina. His only proclomation this week is that it’s National Prostate Cancer Awareness Month.
Today we’ll drop the flags out of respect. For William Rehquist. 10 days…according to the rules.
But you’ll find no proclamation on Katrina here.
: LATER: A proclamation has now been issued. [Thanks, Chancy]
Tags: neworleans, Politics
September 4th, 2005 at 11:36 am
President Bush can’t seem to get anything right. Flying to Hurricane ravaged cities and walking is a “photo op”, being on vacation in Crawford makes him “out of touch”. Now…he didn’t make a flag lowering proclaimation for victims of Katrina! Give it a break! How about asking the mayor of New Orleans why all of the city’s school buses are sitting side by side in floodwaters in their parking lot? Why doesn’t someone ask the Mayor of N.O. why he didn’t follow his own emergency evacuation plan which is clearly posted for all to see on the City of New Orleans website?
Do we really elect the President to do everything or just to have someone to blame everything on? People are dead from Katrina and people are playing politics. Pleaseeeee Mr. President…make a flag lowering proclaimation so we can see what they’ll blame you for next!
September 4th, 2005 at 11:39 am
I’m with you Gene. This is ridiculous. Jeff, get a grip. You’re running what might be the best discussion about this on the web, but you’re starting to get shrill.
September 4th, 2005 at 11:55 am
Saving lives or issuing meangless proclamations. Pick one, Jeff.
Jeff, I have a lot of respect for you, but you are letting your emotions take over. Unplug for a little while. I suspect you have been at it non-stop for 48 hours now and it is showing. No one is trying to minimize what has happened, but going off the deep end, as illustrated by Ray Nagin, isn’t going to help anyone. And you are better than that.
September 4th, 2005 at 11:55 am
You know, I think one of the reasons we don’t have time for little cosmetic gestures like flag lowering is because there is a mess to clean up, people to resettle, a city to drain, buildings to rebuild, and bodies to find, identify, and bury in our own country this time.
We’re busy, Jeff.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:00 pm
Calm down, Jeff. We know you can’t stand Bush. Why don’t you just put it on your masthead and get it over with. Anything for a cheap shot. I thought you were better than that, too, but apparently not.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:01 pm
Yes, that’s just what President Bush should do right now … issue meaningless proclamations while the dead are still floating in New Orleans.
That way, the New York Times can criticize him for issuing meaningless proclamations while the city is still underwater.
Not many of your commenters have had much to say in agreement with about the last 20 posts you’ve made.
Perhaps you are stubbornly clinging to a position that cannot be defended any other way except for meaningless criticisms? Or perhaps, you are just being intentionally provocative.
I’d encourage you to take a day off from blogging to clear your head.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:07 pm
It’s not ridiculous…Bush (”this part of the world”) and Condi are trying to distance themselves from Katrina. Any minute now, the blame will be plopped down solely on the survivors, city, state, and first responders.
The only thing we ask for Bush to do is lead…and he hasn’t done it yet. He doesn’t even really have to lead, he just has to pretend and make us FEEL like he’s leading. I’d be satisfied with that.
This flag business shows where his priorities are. They desperately want to have people think that this was a regional, and not a national event, despite the national and international relief efforts, the short- and long-term economic impact, and the alteration of the map and the people of New Orleans for a generation or more. You Bush apologists are worse than Al Qaeda; your lowered expectations for the Federal Government put us all at risk.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:08 pm
In a nutshell kind of article:
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8693
September 4th, 2005 at 12:08 pm
[...] No llores la muerte Email para Jeff Jarvis de parte de John Pederson (que aquà hacemos traducción): [...]
September 4th, 2005 at 12:09 pm
Jarvis - this is why some leftwing bloggers aren’t happy with you - the Koolaide drinkers hang out here and maybe influence you. You have every right to be outraged, and at the same time, let these watercarriers be Bush’s Baghdad Bob - “All is well, there is no flood, move along, nothing to see here…”
September 4th, 2005 at 12:09 pm
[...] I can’t believe it. First, I saw Jeff Jarvis on MSNBC this morning telling everyone about websites where people are posting pictures of missing loved ones, and with contact information for people looking for missing relatives, and so on, and that was a great service to the country. But then he has to post something stupid like a complaint about a lack of a proclamation by the president to lower the nation’s flags to half mast. See, we lowered them for the tsunami victims two days after the event, but here it is six days already and no lowered flags! Well, this is what I said in his quotes: You know, I think one of the reasons we don’t have time for little cosmetic gestures like flag lowering is because there is a mess to clean up, people to resettle, a city to drain, buildings to rebuild, and bodies to find, identify, and bury in our own country this time. [...]
September 4th, 2005 at 12:15 pm
Jeff,
A few facts for you:
15% of New Orleans police officers have just abandoned their posts, according to the New York Times.
I’ve seen video of where they went - some of them went to Wal Mart to participate in the looting.
Mary Landrieu, sister of Lt. Governor Mitch Landrieu, and a United States Senator, today on ABC News’ This Week … threatened the President of the United States.
“”If one person criticizes [our sheriffs], or says one more thing, including the president of the United States, he will hear from me - one more word about it after this show airs and I - I might likely have to punch him - literally.”
THIS IS THE LEADERSHIP for the State of Louisiana.
A whiny, incompetent Democrat Mayor.
A sanctimonious, inept Democrat Governor who refused to authorize the federal government to take over relief efforts.
An unhinged United States Senator, sister of a ghost.
Have you heard from the Lt. Governor of Louisiana on CNN?
He’s a ghost. Nowhere to be found.
His sister, though, a United States Senator, goes on the airwaves to physically threaten the President.
I hope the Secret Service has her in chains by now.
And you want Bush to issue flag-lowering proclamations?
September 4th, 2005 at 12:16 pm
Flags?
You can’t be serious, you’re joking, right? Geez, folks are working and all you can do is talk about flags? It’s pathetic.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
Mourn later. Send money to the Red Cross now.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:20 pm
Ron - apparently you have zero expectations of the state and local government. Have another glass of koolaid.
Some of us don’t need out hands held - some of us don’t want to “feel better” about it, we want to know exactly what happened and we want it fixed. Apparently you want to feel better and could care less what actually happened.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:28 pm
Robert, nice deflection. You want to find out what happened, demand accountability. If not STFU.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:30 pm
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/09/we-have-to-prepare-country-for-what.html
Don’t forget that folks. This crisis didn’t start until after the hurricane had made landfall and after everyone, EVERYONE, was breathing a sign of relief that Kartina had turned slightly.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:32 pm
Oh, now we are telling people to STFU? Thanks for proving my point.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:39 pm
Another tidbit. When all is said and done, I think Louisiana will be seen as a disaster years in the making, Katrina just pushed it over the edge. Huzzahs for Mississippi, that suffered more and responded better.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:46 pm
OK, Robert, way to go with your moral indignation. Tell me, how long did it take to reconvene Congress for Terri Schiavo versus now?
September 4th, 2005 at 12:49 pm
About as long as it took for you to bring it up in a completely unrelated conversation. Again, with the proving my point.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
I started with the question and the quote.
I completely agree that there are much more important things right now to worry about than how high the flag is, proclomations, etc. Go save some people.
Let me offer up two things. On the small, nitpicky side, It only took 1 day for a proclomation after 9/11. Things were much more chaotic at that point. Look close. They even took the extra time to amend the proclomation to extend the period from the 16th of September to the 22nd of September back on 2001.
Infinately more important, however, is what lowering of the flag is all about. It’s about respect. “By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory.” Right, it doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t save lives. It doesn’t help the effort to rebuild. It doesn’t raise money. It’s a small, tiny gesture made by the federal government to show respect. They did it the day after 9/11. They did it six days after the tsunami. They haven’t done it yet regarding Katrina.
September 4th, 2005 at 12:58 pm
It is a fact, do doubt. The spin being applied to it is what is at issue.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:02 pm
Ron,
The initial decision to remove the feeding tube was made in May, 1998, timeline
here. Congress was in session up until March 18, 2005 and was going to take a 17 day recess starting the following Monday. The bill was passed on Saturday, March 19. The two cases have nothing in common. BTW, you could inform yourself on these matters. Your offhand ignorant comments are just a smokescreen hiding an evident disinclination to actually know anything.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:04 pm
Ron,
There is a flood. And nobody here denies it.
There are also 250 school buses sitting in a city-owned parking lot in the middle of that flood.
Do you know why those buses are sitting there? Because Ray Nagin didn’t do his job … that’s why. Because Ray Nagin didn’t use those buses to evacuate the citizens of his city.
Ray Nagin’s job was to evacuate the poor, homeless and less fortuante from the city of New Orleans … not to send them to a Superdome he knew well ahead of time wasn’t prepared to house them.
He did the same thing in Hurrican Ivan last year.
The city’s Hurricane Disaster Plan makes it quite clear that the Mayor of New Orleans is responsible for the thousands of deaths we will see as soon as they pump out all of that water. It is he who was supposed to evacuate the downtrodden - the poorest of his city.
If he has any decency … he will slink away from New Orleans while the cameras are pointed elsewhere and never return.
Blame is going to be placed. And it’s going to be placed clearly where it lies - with Ray Nagin and Kathern Blanco and the rest of the corrupt Democratic Party of Louisiana.
One day soon, there will be a detailed accounting of where all the levee money went. As a lifelong resident of the state of Louisiana, I have no doubt what it will show.
The only thing left to debate will be the length of the prison sentences handed out for those who so grossly and negligently failed their poorest and neediest citizens.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:07 pm
Jeff’s point, however cosmetic, gets to the heart of the overall tardy response the feds have had to this. How many “Sorry I’m late” responses will there be before the president figures it out? It takes 1 minute to make such a proclamation and have those in Washington make it happen. Symbolic, yes, but it will be balanced against other disasters and leave people wondering why this doesn’t rate the same response.
I voted twice for Bush, supported (and support) the war, think that Rumsfeld and Rove should not have resigned, but I’m pretty disgusted with the response from Bush’s administration. Mike Brown (head of FEMA) ought to be fired, or pushed deep into the background.
I don’t think Jeff’s point is overreactive. As a guy who volunteered in Bush’s re-election campaign, I share his reaction.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
Could someone point me towards the discussions of where we are going to relocate 250,000 people for the next six months to two years?
I realize there are no qualifications necessary to be a “pundit” but if all you can think to do his point fingers perhaps you should just step aside and maybe some people with ideas or first hand information will step forward.
There seems to have been (and apparently continues to be) enough incompetence to go around. We have turned our school system into a second rate program compared with the rest of the developed world over the past 30 years. The graduates of that training are now running the country.
Things like risk assessment are beyond them. That’s why we are stockpiling smallpox and anthrax vaccines instead of working on prevention for the predicted bird flu epidemic.
If you want to see unpreparedness read up on that. Estimates are 20 - 40 MILLION deaths.
The immediate issue is housing, jobs, schools and support infrastructure for the displaced. Where are the ideas, let alone the acts?
How about tent cities, or use of military bases?
How about abandoned housing in dying midwest towns?
I expect this all to be ignored as the cheap shots resume.
Over to you…
September 4th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
They weren’t late. Life isn’t like tv. The local and state government of Louisiana failed. The powers of the fed to make the country’s boo-boos better is limited — that’s why the states and municipalities are supposed to do their part. Mississippi’s and Alabama’s did — Louisiana’s didn’t. Maybe it wasn’t entirely the mayor’s and the governor’s fault — the problems in that state go back far into the past, and are more than one administration can fix.
Look. I’ve been through three hurricanes in the past year. I’ve been through Andrew. There is no easy fix. People will not get all better right away. People in government — even Bush — are only human, and can only do so much. Your complaints — and with all due respect, Mr. Pederson, your nitpicking over tiny details of etiquette — are not constructive.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:29 pm
Robert Feinman,
…instead of working on prevention for the predicted bird flu epidemic.
Yes, I’m waiting for your suggestions. Normal flu vaccines are made by inoculating chicken eggs. Unfortunately, the bird flu kills the embryo, so it doesn’t work. I believe recent advances have been made, but they are not in production, and, in any case, the vaccines can not be made years in advance because the flu mutates so rapidly, the lead time is only a matter of months. Add to this that the flu is spread by migrating birds, so it is hard to isolate. And speaking of vaccine production, government contracting in the 90’s drove producers out of business — vaccine production is at best risky and low return — so we aren’t in such a good position there. Likewise, public health at the local level has been underfunded for decades and folks aren’t eager to give over their personal freedom to the stringent measures quarantine, or even contact tracing of STDs, requires.
So yes, there is another potential disaster in waiting. Like Louisiana, it will be a product of years of neglect and unforseen consequence. So, again, what do you propose we do?
September 4th, 2005 at 1:29 pm
All I can do is repeat what I just said in another thread: if I were one of the survivors in the midst of still trying to survive, I think I might actually be disheartened by an early lowering of the flags. You do that when the death total is tallied, not before. This isn’t even a matter of there being more important concerns: it’s the wrong freaking time!
The criticism here, like much of the political backbiting, is way out of line. There will be plenty of time to grieve later.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:31 pm
Waaahhhh…Everyone is blaming the president….waaaaahhhh!!!! It’s the victims fault!!! Waaaaaahhhhhhh!!! Why does everyone pick on the party that controls all three branches of government!! Waaaaahhhhhh!!!
Gimme a break.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:35 pm
Excellent point Carson.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
Carson, I gotta disagree. If I were a victim in the midst of this, I would want to know that I have the government’s full attention and seriousness. If others got a different treatment than I’m receiving, and if the general perception is that the feds are lacking in response, then slights like this only exaccerbate the impression that’s already taken hold.
If you’re waiting until the toll is tallied before the flags are lowered, we’ll wait until 2006.
The president has proven himself capable of handling many tasks at once. He can do this too. But he does need to show that his administration is up to the many tasks on this front. What’s sad is that he’ll have little help from the ineptitude of the local and state officials. But it’s the task he has, regardless of the performance of others.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:38 pm
Right now the loss of life from Katrina is undetermined, although any loss is still too many. The tsunami, even after a few hours, was determined to be in the tens of thousands (and ultimately much more.) 9/11 stands on its own merits.
There was no advance notice for either the tsunami nor 9/11. We knew this was coming. There is plenty of blame to go around but it starts with the local and state governments. If there is fault to be laid with the the feds, it should start with their reluctance to take over from local government earlier.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:45 pm
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America’s families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:51 pm
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=14
The devil is always in the details Ron.
September 4th, 2005 at 1:51 pm
With respect to plans for the displaced residents, it is happening here in NW Louisiana. I don’t know why it hasn’t made the news. I’m sure it is happening all over.
We’re having a job fair this week, and tent cities, and old military bases are being used. Public and private schools have opened up and the local SSA is cutting checks for those who normally receive them. The number of volunteers average one per ten evacuees.
While I’m sure the evacuees would much rather be in their intact homes, the local population has opened their arms, hearts, and checkbooks to them.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:00 pm
Bush continues to show that he is totally out of touch with America. He fiddled and people died (and continue to die).
September 4th, 2005 at 2:01 pm
Klarkin,
Thanks for the update. Sounds like folks are getting to work and doing good things. This is what the news coverage should be about: encouraging the good and giving kudos where they are deserved.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:01 pm
Jeez, Rob, can you stop fiddling for a bit.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:04 pm
Thank God my sister and her family made it out safely from NO.
Now, if I was one of those hundreds of thousands who has not yet been able to connect with my loved ones to even know if they’re alive, I doubt seeing a flag at half mast would provide much ‘comfort’ or make me feel any better.
Come On. Can we discuss something helpful and hopeful around here?
How about creating mechanisms to connect people for taking survivors into their homes - perhaps with a stipend from the gov to help with room and board, or to connect people for offering and finding jobs?
Come on JJ and the blogosphere, let’s see (more of) your stuff - ala connecting the missing..
September 4th, 2005 at 2:05 pm
‘THIS IS THE LEADERSHIP for the State of Louisiana.
A whiny, incompetent Democrat Mayor.
A sanctimonious, inept Democrat Governor who refused to authorize the federal government to take over relief efforts.
An unhinged United States Senator, sister of a ghost.’
Now this is deep, Rightnumberone. You’re mocking Nagin, Blanco and Landrieu for showing their strained nerves in public after they have been deserted by the federal authorities. Of course, you forget to mention that FEMA failed to fulfill it’s duty, creating the situation you are now joking about. Btw, you forget to mention several other officials who were critizising the efforts of the feds. In your opinion, all officials in charge in Louisisana failed but FEMA didn’t do anything wrong?
I guess the public has another perception.
To say it with the words of Kecin Drum:
‘I don’t have much doubt that there’s plenty of blame to go around on the subject of Hurricane Katrina, but the plain truth is that a disaster like this will always overwhelm state and local authorities no matter what. That’s why we have FEMA.’
And still nobody here answered one of the main questions: Bush, Brown and Chertoff told the media that ‘nobody anticipated the breach of the levees’.
If this statement is correct, how can you blame Nagin and Blanco?
If this is wrong, do you think Bush, Brown and Chertoff lied?
September 4th, 2005 at 2:15 pm
Rob you’re asking Bush toi have declared Blanco and Nagin before the fact to be incompetent to handle the relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina that governors and mayors in other states were deemed competent to handle during the 2004 hurricane season. While the government can userpt the power of state and local officials to supervise evacuation and mobilization efforts when a severe storm is approaching, to do so beforehand, when no one could say whether or not Nagin and Blanco had failed to do enough pre-hurricane preparation, would have been unprecendented.
Monday Morning quarterbacking is a staple of life in America, but what would have happened if Bush actually had done this, and Katrina had then moved towards Texas or the Florida Panhandle? “Bush seizes power from Louisana Democratic officials” would have been the headline, and we would have been inundated by claims that Bush was using the Patriot Act and DHS trying to turn the country into a police state.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:32 pm
It is so obvious from the posts here and from the excuses and finger pointing by the Bush administration toward everyone but themselves that desperation has set in among those higher ups who must know but deny that the buck stops with them. And all this before even the body bags have arrived at the makeshift mourges which will total in the high thousands.
Lack of leadership at the highest levels spells incompetence and no number of clever excuses will erase that fact.
George Will, a conservative Republican said today on ABC ” ThisWeek” that this could be Gerorge W Bush’s Iran Countra. Reagan had his Iran Contra which showed a lack of hands on leadership.
Same goes for Bush in this fuck up.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
If Bush wanted to help he could stay in Washington and save all the fuel for the planes and vehicles in his photo-op machine. He could tell the security people already on the ground in LA to change their mission to helping with recovery rather than disrupting it preparing for photo-ops. He could also offer to house a few families at his ranch. You know there have to dozens of beds there for all the security people, assistant deputy executive assistants, etc. A few campaign contributors could donate food to feed them while they are on the ranch.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:40 pm
‘George Will, a conservative Republican said today on ABC †ThisWeek†that this could be Gerorge W Bush’s Iran Countra.’
100% ack, Chancy.
While this utter failure of FEMA is to be blamed on Michael Brown and Michael Chertoff in the first place, it was GWB who appointed them and who crippled FEMA with a failed reform. The buck stops at the White House.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:45 pm
And still nobody here answered one of the main questions: Bush, Brown and Chertoff told the media that ‘nobody anticipated the breach of the levees’.
If this statement is correct, how can you blame Nagin and Blanco?
If this is wrong, do you think Bush, Brown and Chertoff lied?
September 4th, 2005 at 2:50 pm
Ron,
I can’t wait to have this debate with you.
Here is the official Hurricane Evacuation Plan for New Orelans:
“Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor. By Executive Order, the chief elected official, the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, has the authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.
Evacuation procedures for special needs persons with either physical or mental handicaps, including registration of disabled persons, is covered in the SOP for Evacuation of Special Needs Persons.”
Ray Nagin and the rest of the corrupt Democratic Party in New Orleans and in Louisiana have no political future.
You can try to pull the wool over the people of Louisiana’s eyes, but they are smarter than you blue staters.
They know who their leaders are. They’ve watched with disgust as they’ve gotten on television to bitch and whine about how nobody will come do their jobs for them.
These people will soon be relieved of their frustrations - the people of Louisiana are going to have them prosecuted.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
Gray,
Stripped of all context, I guess you would have a point.
However, the comments made about the levy collapsing in New Orleans were made in the context of the day after the hurricane, when they were still intact, and everyone believed they would stay intact.
So, just because someone says that the levy collapse was “unexpected” doesn’t relieve the Mayor New Orleans from his duty to have evacuated the poor and infirm from New Orleans BEFORE THE HURRICANE ever made landfall.
He was urged to do this and did not.
The Mayor, and the Governor, of the state of Louisiana, have poor, black blood on their hands. I have no doubt that had the threatened population been white political donors, they would have been evacuated last Thursday.
Nagin and Blanco’s inaction, their inability, their unwillingness to implement their own hurricane evacuation plans, written LONG BEFORE this hurricane, resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent poor, black people.
And they deserve all the scorn we, former and current residents of Louisiana, intend to heap on them.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:59 pm
Here’s the crux of the problem from Sunday’s Washington Post. Considering how much trouble the federal officials are having five days after the hurricane taking over control of operations normally delegated to state and local officials, just imagine what the outcry would have been if the Bush Administration had tried to do this pro-actively, while Kartina was still in the Gulf and the effects of the failure to act were still unknown:
There’s stuff for everyone here, and FEMA certainly is at fault for relaxing Monday night, after the storm had passed but before the levees began to collapse. But attacking the feds for not taking over the situation on Aug. 28, when the governor still doesn’t want to give them control on Sept. 4, is really 20-20 hindsight at its worst.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:03 pm
Ok, then. When the salute to Rehnquist is over, why don’t we all designate our own week to lower our flags to honor those who Katrina killed?
Let the president go his own way. Let’s pick the dates, get our own flags ready, and tell the politicians we want all their flags lowered, too. Starting at the White House.
Get the word out.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:05 pm
John,
The people here blaming FEMA, an organization which RESPONDS to the aftermath of natural disasters such as this hurricane, are unmoved by mere facts.
The fact that the city has an evacuation plan that was ignored and that city and state officials refused to allow the federal government to do the job they were criminally negligent in failing to do, is of no concern to them.
They have one goal: to somehow blame the federal government.
Appeals to the facts are wasted on them.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:15 pm
John, good backstory. There is blame to be shared…and EVERYONE should take their beatings; no scapegoats, no obstruction.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:16 pm
RightNumberOne:
“Ron,
There is a flood. And nobody here denies it.”
Except the Bush Administration for 2 1/2 days of his precious vacation.
“There are also 250 school buses sitting in a city-owned parking lot in the middle of that flood.
Do you know why those buses are sitting there? Because Ray Nagin didn’t do his job … that’s why. Because Ray Nagin didn’t use those buses to evacuate the citizens of his city.”
Gee, the drivers, having been employed, and therfore, with the means of evacuation, nust have, uh, evacuated.
“Ray Nagin’s job was to evacuate the poor, homeless and less fortuante from the city of New Orleans … not to send them to a Superdome he knew well ahead of time wasn’t prepared to house them.
He did the same thing in Hurrican Ivan last year.
The city’s Hurricane Disaster Plan makes it quite clear that the Mayor of New Orleans is responsible for the thousands of deaths we will see as soon as they pump out all of that water. It is he who was supposed to evacuate the downtrodden - the poorest of his city.”
“If he has any decency … he will slink away from New Orleans while the cameras are pointed elsewhere and never return.”
He was publicly begging for help on Tuesday (before the “anarchy” started). Where was Bush, Chertoff, Brown, Rice, Cheney, 1/3 of the National guard and 1/2 of it’s equipment? Strumin’ a guitar? Golfing? Talking to a crowd of syncophants? Buying $3000 shoes? He did far better than the administration, when it is documented on the WH website that the WH had taken the primary respnsibility for New Orleans safety on the Saturday before.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
Saturday evening and Sunday would have been the day the Bush flew back to DC and rounded up his HS and FEMA personnel and co-ordinated with what was left of the LNG and initiated a military style evacuation with bullhorns in the streets. A mayor cannot organize at that level with local law enforcement. I would speculate the mayor and others thought of the school buses, but reverted to the Dome under the assumtion that it would be quicker and FEMA, NG, Chertoff, Brown and President would be there the next day.
“Blame is going to be placed. And it’s going to be placed clearly where it lies - with Ray Nagin and Kathern Blanco and the rest of the corrupt Democratic Party of Louisiana.”
Think again. Read the documents. Blame will fall on local officials only because the selfish and greedy are in control.
“One day soon, there will be a detailed accounting of where all the levee money went. As a lifelong resident of the state of Louisiana, I have no doubt what it will show.”
It went to Iraq and Halliburton, numnut. Read the documents that are widely available.
“The only thing left to debate will be the length of the prison sentences handed out for those who so grossly and negligently failed their poorest and neediest citizens. ”
Amen to that, brother!
September 4th, 2005 at 3:16 pm
RightNumberOne,
These people will soon be relieved of their frustrations - the people of Louisiana are going to have them prosecuted.
Two questions:
1) Are you in Louisiana right now?
2) Are people talking about prosecution?
September 4th, 2005 at 3:20 pm
I will Agree that worrying about Flag half staffing is a little beside the point right now. Perhaps in a few months. A week of rememberance. Wait until we know how many thousands have died.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:26 pm
‘So, just because someone says that the levy collapse was “unexpected†doesn’t relieve the Mayor New Orleans from his duty to have evacuated the poor and infirm from New Orleans BEFORE THE HURRICANE ever made landfall.’
Rightnumberone, I have no problem with this statement. In fact, this is my opinion, 2. But this logic implies that Brown and Chertoff can’t be relieved from their obligation to prepare for a breach of the levees, to. ‘Michael D. Brown, FEMA’s director, offered an emphatic defense of the federal response, saying that his agency prepared for the storm but that the widespread, unexpected flooding kept rescuers out of the city.’ If Nagin as a mayor should have prepared for the flooding, Brown as the head of the fed agency for emergency measures should have been even more aware to get ready for this worst case. His statements show that he didn’t take this into account. So he failed the president and the nation.
See that you can’t have it both ways, rightnumberone? You can’t put the blame on Nagin and Blanco alone and at the same time spare Brown.
They all made serious mistakes. Question is, whose mistakes where the gravest.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:26 pm
Wow BC,
You proved my point. Ray Nagin was publically begging for help on Tuesday when he should have evacuated the poor, infirm black people of New Orleans on his 255 buses last Thursday … you know, before the Hurricane hit.
After all, the New Orleans Hurricane Evacuation Plan gives him the authority, and the obilgation, to do just that.
My problem with Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco is that on Tuesday, they were both publically begging for help; and that the previous Tuesday, they should have been doing their jobs.
If Ray Nagin had done his job, I’d be saluting him today for saving all those lives.
Instead, he’s responsible for all those dead. Hopefully, he will soon be relieved of his need to publically beg for someone else to do his job.
Hopefully, he’ll soon be in prison for negligent homicide.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:32 pm
One serious question is, could Nagin or Blanco have used force to evacuate citizen against their will? Aside from the fact that this smells of dictatorship and is totally unamerican, afaik a declaration of martial law prior to a possible natural desaster is without precedent. And there seem to be some juridicial problems involved, since there is no article for martial law in the law of La. Would something like that have been possible?
September 4th, 2005 at 3:33 pm
So you think Bush and FEMA’s 2 1/2 day delay, for the sake of Vaca, Guitar Shoes, Etc. is perfectly OK? You didn’t address a single one of these points. Defend your boy in the Whitehouse. C’mom….
September 4th, 2005 at 3:35 pm
Chuck,
I am a lifelong resident of Louisiana, currently displaced, but well aware of the corrupt and incompetent nature of the Democratic party in my home state.
Most of the people in Louisiana are too busy right now taking care of those the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana failed to worry about what price those two will pay for their negligence.
But that day is coming.
The people of Louisiana aren’t hoodwinkable the way New York talking head pundits are. They know who their leaders are.
But they are talking about how embarassed they are every time one Nagin and Blanco appear on television begging for someone else to do something.
They remember 9-11. They remember Rudy Guiliani and how he guided his city through one of the worst attacks on this country in its history.
They don’t remember Rudy Guiliani holding news conferences to bitch and moan about how nobody will help him. They don’t remember Rudy Guiliani getting on national television and demanding that someone else “get up off their ass” and do something.
They wish they had a Rudy Guiliani leading them now.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
“Gee, the drivers, having been employed, and therfore, with the means of evacuation, nust have, uh, evacuated.”
If the drivers evacuated, then nobody told them they were essential personnel. So either there wasn’t a plan, or the plan wasn’t executed, right?
On Fark a correspondent from N.O. noted that the pumps in certain neighborhoods were not operating on day one. It’s not that these particular pumps were broken, but these were pumps that had to be manned, and the operators evacuated.
If the pump operates evacuated, then certainly nobody told them they were essential personnel. If the pumps had to run without operators, they should have had the controls to do that.
It really starts to sound like there wasn’t a plan.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
“They don’t remember Rudy Guiliani holding news conferences to bitch and moan about how nobody will help him. They don’t remember Rudy Guiliani getting on national television and demanding that someone else “get up off their ass†and do something.”
Thats because the Feds were right on it. And nobody was waiting for life and death a day after the fact. Everyone on 9/11 was killed fast.
2 1/2 days, RightNumberOne. 2 1/2 days! I’m sorry about your corrupt local Government. As if none else are. Swartzenegger, Coingate. Take your pick. I’m asking you what you think of the Federal Response.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:42 pm
Gray,
Nobody is saying that Ray Nagin should have brandished a gun and ordered everybody to leave town. That’s not what the evacuation plan says that he should do.
It says that when he orders a mandatory evacuation, he must consider that many people in his state lack the means or the ability to mandatorily evacuate.
The plan predicts this. The plan accounts for it and expects it.
The plan says that he should commandeer all the city buses and school buses and provide these as a means of allowing those people to obey the mandatory evacuation order.
You know, just in case the levee’s, which were designed to withstand the force of a Category 3 hurricane, don’t hold up to a Category 4 or 5 hurricane.
It’s all there in the city’s Hurricane Evacuation Plan.
Nagin was urged to use the buses.
He refused to.
FYI: Here is the link to the city’s Hurricane Emergency Preparedness Plan.
Ironically, it’s still up on the web should Ray Nagin ever care to read it:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
September 4th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
‘Ray Nagin was publically begging for help on Tuesday when he should have evacuated the poor, infirm black people of New Orleans on his 255 buses last Thursday … you know, before the Hurricane hit.’
Get your facts straight. The hurricane warning was on friday. Besides, 255 busses could have evacuated about 15000 inhabitants, but where should Nagin have brought them? Where was a place that could offer shelter, food, water and medical support for all of his poor, disabled and elderly citizen? The busses would have had to make several tours to transport all 100000 who hadn’t left the city, making the timetable of this operation extremely tight. But again, where would that monster shelter have been? Nagin and Blanco don’t have the authority to organize an evacuation camp in a neighboring state. This is where FEMA is responsible, if they had taken this possibility into account it would have been possible to plan and organize this. It would have saved countless lives.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
BC,
The problem you are having is that you are concerned about the federal RESPONSE to this disaster.
That’s the problem with most liberals. All they can seem to do is bitch about the quality of the work everyone else is doing.
The federal government had no power to order an evacuation of New Orleans; but Ray Nagin did have that power. And he exercised it. He ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city (at the urging of President Bush).
He then left the defenseless poor and infirm black people of his city to drown. He rode out the storm in Baton Rouge.
I think having 40,000 troops in New Orleans 2 1/2 days later is a pretty good response to the ineptitude of Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco, and the New Orleans police department, whose officers were too busy participating in looting the Wal Mart to actually, you know, save people.
Nagin and especially Blanco did everything in their power to STOP the federal government from taking over (as the Washington Post reported above).
And because of that, thousands of people are dead.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:52 pm
My dog has the runs and I blame Bush. I don’t know why I blame him. It just seems to be the thing to do. By the way, I watch alot of network television.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:57 pm
Switch off the TV and get some medical help, Doug.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:59 pm
Ray,
I’m pretty sure I have my facts straight.
Hurricane Katrina made landfall at Grand Isle Louisiana on Monday, August 29. It was classified as a Category 5 hurricane, the most powerful known to man, on Sunday, August 28. Just prior to it having been declared a Category 5 hurricane, it was a Category 4 hurricane. And for many hours before that, it was a Category 3 Hurricane directly aiming at New Orleans.
Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans on Sunday, August 28, at the urging of President Bush and other federal officials. He resisted that order until then.
Once he made that mandatory evacuation order, he was obligated to evacuate the infirm and poor, as is clearly written in the city’s Hurricane Evacuation Plan.
He waited to long to order the evacuation.
Ray waited … and thousands died.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:59 pm
I read the NO emergency plan at http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
The word Flood apears twice. In regard to participation in the Flood Insurance Program. The Emergency Planning does not allow for Levy break and flooding. Everyone forsaw the breaking of the Levy in this type of storm. Nobody, locally planned for it because nobody locally could have physically initiated the plan! Thus it becomes A Federal responsibility! Where were the for 2 1/2 days?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:02 pm
Who said I was Liberal?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:03 pm
And on your other point:
255 school buses each carrying 50 people can get to the Cajun Dome in Lafayette in 2 hours. (Of course, Ray had many, many more buses at his disposal. This number is parked in ONE LOT.)
Using just these school buses, one can empty the city of 200,000 people in 26 hours; if that is your goal, without even comandeering the 300 municipal buses that are now also in the flood.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:03 pm
Not 2 1/2 days for the National Guard. 2 1/2 days for The administration to act. That is what I want Explained.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:06 pm
Oh, I see BC
So, because you see the word flood only twice, then this plan could not have possibly been useful.
It is a Hurricane Evacuation Plan … the official plan for the city of New Orleans.
Ray Nagin didn’t order a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans because there was a flood, but he knew one was coming.
He’s quoted in this CNN article saying so:
“NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) — New Orleans braced for a catastrophic blow from Hurricane Katrina overnight, as forecasters predicted the Category 5 storm could drive a wall of water over the city’s levees.
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor’s announcement)
“This is a threat that we’ve never faced before,” Nagin said. “If we galvanize and gather around each other, I’m sure we will get through this.”
Gathering around each other was exactly the WRONG THING. The Hurricane Plan doesn’t say “let’s everyone gather around each other and hug and then everything will be better.”
It says to evacuate the city.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:08 pm
Forgot the link to the story:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/
September 4th, 2005 at 4:12 pm
‘He then left the defenseless poor and infirm black people of his city to drown. He rode out the storm in Baton Rouge.’
Rightnumberone, that’s not correct. Many of those people were gathering in one of the hurricane shelters. Afaik, of the NO citizen nobody did drown until after monday. Even then, there could have been a happy end when all the available resources had been used to prevent the flooding. When the promised federal help in repairing the breeches didn’t materialize, Nagin ordered all citizen to leave immediately because a flooding was inevitable. Again, he received no federal support, a clear violation of the defined duties of FEMA. Of course, if the busdrivers would have been available, the 250 busses would have been helpful. This was a serious mistake of Nagin, but it’s also true that he was left alone by FEMA, as became clear in his TV beggings. One way or the other, the city busses wouldn’t have been sufficient to transport all maybe 100000 people who were in harm’s way. This desaster was too huge for city and state resources, federal support was indispensable, but the cavalry arrived too late.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:13 pm
BC,
The reason you’re confused is that you actually believe that it took 2 1/2 days for the federal government to act.
It didn’t.
The Federal Government was acting LONG BEFORE the storm ever hit; trying to get Ray Nagin to evacuate the city. It acted immeidately after the storm to the affected areas - which were NOT New Orleans, but rather Mississippi and Alabama.
You don’t know this because CNN hasn’t told you. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Ray Nagin refused to properly evacuate his city.
And because he refused to act according to a well-established plan before the storm, many, many poor black people in his city died because of his negligence.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
Gray,
Your facts are incorrect.
Ray Nagin knew a flood was coming. See the CNN story where he’s quoted saying so.
Once the levee was breached, there was no stopping the flood. Lake Pontchartrain is the largest salt-water lake in the world. No human effort could have prevented the flood once the levee system failed.
And it failed in exactly the way that it was predicted to fail many, many years ago. Everyone in Louisiana knew it WOULD fail. It was DESIGNED to fail if a Category 4 hurricane hit.
The levee system was designed to contain the storm surge of a Category 3 hurricane. Everyone who has ever lived in Louisiana knows this. Ray Nagin knew it, and that’s why he ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city.
Rather than bus out the old, infirm and poor residents … he told them to go to the Superdome, knowing full well there was no food there, no water there, no electricity there and no help there.
He’s artfully crying to the cameras now to deflect his criminal negligence.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
‘Ray,
I’m pretty sure I have my facts straight.’
The name is Gray, Brightnumberone, and the warning became public on friday, not thursday. If you have other info, post a link pls.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:26 pm
‘Ray Nagin knew a flood was coming. See the CNN story where he’s quoted saying so.’
Read your ‘evidence’ again. He was taking into account that the hurricanes waves would top the levees, not breach them. Th topping would have flooded the area for quite less than one story, and the pumps would have handled that in relatively short time. The breach did open the city to the waters of lake pontchartrain, leaving the pumps worthless, which was the deadly blow to the city. And remember: Bush, Brown and Chertoff said that nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:28 pm
Gray,
Sorry for the mistyping your name. I’ve gotten most of the other words correct.
And incidently, in this thread, I’ve linked to many, many external sources of information. I do not base my opinions on mere speculation.
You have not linked to one external source in all of your bombast.
And since this discussion has devolved into complaints about my typing, I’ll leave you to debate this topic alone.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:29 pm
“Using just these school buses, one can empty the city of 200,000 people in 26 hours; if that is your goal, without even comandeering the 300 municipal buses that are now also in the flood.”
All the other evacuees would, of course, clear the roads for the 13 cycles required. That would Require a then no-show, severly-reduced-anyway NG, wouldn’t it.
“I think having 40,000 troops in New Orleans 2 1/2 days later is a pretty good response”
That’s an outright lie. National guard was mobilized from other states on that day because FEMA had just woken up. How could there be 40000 in NO on Thursday? There were less than 3000 NG there on Thursday. Are you kidding? FEMA should have mobilized them, at least, by Sunday-before-the-storm. I knew the the flooding and loss of life was going to be enormous Sunday morning, when I saw the Radar and read back issues of the Times Picaune about the FEDERAL levy and pumping projects funding being cut in half by a REPUBLICAN congress to help pay for a Shia governemnt in Iraq. I could run Fema fer gosh sakes! My god the Administration appoligists are thicker than I ever imagined!
September 4th, 2005 at 4:29 pm
Someone emailed me with the suggestion to use Governor’s Island in New York Harbor. This is an excellent idea!
This is an empty Coast Guard base that could house 10-20 thousand people.
It has a school, church, recreational facility, officer housing in private homes and many apartment buildings that were used for enlisted personnel.
There is an operating ferry that takes five minutes to get to Manhattan.
The base could be made usable in short order.
I took a tour last year, you can see some pictures I took on my web site, if you wish to judge for yourself:
http://robertdfeinman.com
That’s what I mean about brainstorming instead of finger pointing.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:32 pm
‘And it failed in exactly the way that it was predicted to fail many, many years ago. Everyone in Louisiana knew it WOULD fail. It was DESIGNED to fail if a Category 4 hurricane hit.’
Sry, nonsense. Nobody knew it would fail, some experts warned of a possible danger. That’s no certainty. The levees were designed to withstand a lvl 3 hurrivane. This is not logically equivalent to the statement that they were designed to fail lvl 4. They could have resisted lvl 4, but it was not in their specs. In fact, most of them stood up to the waves, except the vulnerable draining chanels. Even they could have held if the feds wouldn’t have slashed the necessary funds for maintenance.
And, what are you talkin about, Bush, Brown and Chertoff said that nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees. You wanna call them liars?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
‘National guard was mobilized from other states on that day because FEMA had just woken up. How could there be 40000 in NO on Thursday? There were less than 3000 NG there on Thursday.’
Probably even much less, BC, afaik these are the numbers for the whole desaster area. NO is just a part of it.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:44 pm
Someone emailed me with the suggestion to use Governor’s Island in New York Harbor. This is an excellent idea!
I think it is a terrible idea. The residents won’t be going back soon and the last thing we need is a refugee camp. Much better for folks to scatter across nearby states where they can find jobs, the kids can go to school, and the medical facilities are already in place. And that is what is happening.
How to deal with the criminal element who made up far too much of the city is a trickier question. Does anyone want them?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:47 pm
All the other evacuees would, of course, clear the roads for the 13 cycles required. That would Require a then no-show, severly-reduced-anyway NG, wouldn’t it.
That’s what I love about the naysayers here: the can’t do, can’t be done attitude. Great stuff. Just don’t ever ask me to vote for one of them.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:54 pm
Rightnumberone, dunno what’s so ‘bombastic’ about my comments, I just try to give the facts.
I check google news search regularly. I found no warnings for NO for the 26., and even at friday 27., it wasn’t certain that Katrina would hit NO and it was still a cat 4 hurricane then. Nevertheless, Blanco declared state emergency ‘just in case’:
http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125123931221200.xml
Again, if you have other infos, pls post a link.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:58 pm
‘the can’t do, can’t be done attitude.’ Yup, that’s typical of the republicans, the soft bigotry of low expectations. They apologise FEMA, claiming it hasn’t been possible to evacuate the 20000 people from the superdome in less than 6 days.
Who’s gonna believe this?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:02 pm
Ok. Links you want, links you got:
Forecasters: Katrina to aim for Mississippi, Louisiana
Deadly hurricane could hit again Monday as a Category 4
Saturday, August 27, 2005 Posted: 0200 GMT (1000 HKT)
HOLLYWOOD, Florida (CNN) — Hurricane Katrina will make a “big shift” to the west on its way across the Gulf of Mexico and is expected to reach dangerous Category 4 intensity before making landfall Monday afternoon in Mississippi or Louisiana, the National Hurricane Center said Friday.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/26/tropical.weather/
So, Ray Nagin was warned by the National Hurricane Center as early as August 27, 2005 that a Category 4 hurricane was about to hit his city.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:02 pm
PS.
You misspelled apologize.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:03 pm
Gray,
Yup, that’s typical of the republicans
Boy, they are really, really clever too. Always have that great comeback. Try “bounces off me, sticks to you” instead. It sounds better and will elevate your apparent age to something more respectable.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:38 pm
“Bush, Brown and Chertoff said that nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees.” Because ON MONDAY the levees had apparently survived the storm intact. Gray, Chertoff has subsequently explained that statement to you. I guess you didn’t hear it? Too busy Bush bashing and calling these guys liars?
NO celebrated that it had dodged the bullet on Monday. I did so with my sister by phone. FEMA was busy in a few other states as well. On MONDAY, *should* FEMA’s attention been focused predominantly in the regions which *did* take the direct hit due to the storm’s jag at the last moment? Does anyone here believe that shifts in resources/attention to Biloxi and etc. didn’t take place on Monday? As a taxpayer I WANTED their attention focused on the most decimated regions first and foremost. The magnitude of the storm continues to be forgotten with all the finger pointing re NO.
Did FEMA have to regroup and divert back to NO after Tuesday unfolded? You bet. But as of Monday NO appeared to be in ‘relatively’ good shape. Should FEMA have been ‘on the ground’ [somewhere] with, again, all resources in every possible location the storm *might have* hit? Are resources/assets diverted *away* from the path of hurricanes so they’ll actually, you know, EXIST after the storm passes? Does it take time to then deliver them back to the actual strike zone? Did FEMA then face logistical nightmares the likes of which we’ve never seen before, in the largest natural disaster we’ve ever known? Should FEMA’s budget be large enough to *immediately* respond in an area the size of 5 Britains all at once? 10 Britains?
Fact is, had the city actually been evacuated in a timely fashion, and had the poor not instead been *bussed* into the heart of the city, we would not have had to experience the horror of NO. Nice work on evacuating all area hospitals and nursing homes, too.
Has Blanco agreed to *allow* the Feds to evacuate her city yet?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:47 pm
‘Saturday, August 27, 2005 Posted: 0200 GMT (1000 HKT)’
You must be joking. Scroll up, you said thursday. Blanco declared state of emergency on freiday, for god’s sake. Can’t you simply admit you made an error?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:51 pm
‘“Bush, Brown and Chertoff said that nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees.†Because ON MONDAY the levees had apparently survived the storm intact. Gray, Chertoff has subsequently explained that statement to you. I guess you didn’t hear it? Too busy Bush bashing and calling these guys liars?’
Eileen, you totally missed the point. Some here are accusing Nagin that he should have anticipated the possible breaching of the levees. But either ‘nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees’ is true, then Nagin isn’t guilty, or it could have been anticipated, but then Bush, Brown and Chertoff are liars. This is elementary, dear Eileen.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:52 pm
Gray, wasn’t it a cat THREE on a projected path which included NO on Thursday?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
You have no shame. None. Eileen, I stayed out of the blame game, because you convinced me to, and I’m more concerned with what happened and what’s next.
But you didn’t mean it, and neither did any of the other people so bravely attacking - and lying - about the mayor of New Orleans.
Don’t make excuses. Don’t shift the blame. WE FAILED.
And you all, you have no shame whatsoever.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:57 pm
‘Does anyone here believe that shifts in resources/attention to Biloxi and etc. didn’t take place on Monday?’
Eileen, I believe in many things. For instance, I believe that in a discussion like this, you better cling to the facts, or else soon somebody will declare that some al quaida terrorist blew up that canal in NO.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:00 pm
‘Gray, wasn’t it a cat THREE on a projected path which included NO on Thursday?’
Eileen, I dunno. Rightnumberone declared that there have been hurricane warnings for NO on thursday. This wasn’t my idea. I couldn’t find any.
Pls read the other postings above, I’m too exhausted to post all this again.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:02 pm
There are a bunch of Bush apologists posting here. The non response to this catastrophic disaster is non partisan. The American people see it loudly and clearly. The President and FEMA dithered about while people died. It’s that simple.
There are a certain amount of people on both sides who will defend their side no matter what the facts are.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:02 pm
Oh, Eileen, and pls don’t quote me with ’some al quaida terrorist blew up that canal in NO’
September 4th, 2005 at 6:06 pm
All this Monday morning quarterbacking is pathetic. There is more than enough blame to go around. This was a “Perfect Storm” not only for Katrina but also for the attitude of local, state, and federal politicians and administrators who thought “keeping their fingers crossed” was a form of disaster planning. They KNEW this might happen and did nothing but HOPE that it wouldn’t. Republican or Democrat, all are equally responsible for this. Those of you who use this tragedy to make your point about the other side make me sick.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:08 pm
Ray Nagin prepares to leave town?
“Today was a turning point, I think,” he said. “My philosophy is never get too high, never get too low. … I always try to keep my emotions in check and yesterday I kind of went off a little bit. I was worried about that, but it maybe worked out. I don’t know. If the CIA slips me something and next week you don’t see me, you’ll all know what happened.”
Leadership?
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/112571274188600.xml&storylist=louisiana
September 4th, 2005 at 6:11 pm
Joe,
For someone spouting alleged facts, perhaps you should check this ABCNews poll just released.
The American people don’t agree with your assessment.
Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1
September 4th, 2005 at 6:11 pm
Gray,
By the way, I’m still waiting for you to post a link to your facts.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:18 pm
Sorry about that, Greg. I acknowledge I caved. The focus has been all about blame on the news and here as well. I wanted to ask some real questions about FEMA that I am struggling with as well. And I had just read an article dated August 28th in which both Blanco and Nagin appeared to be totally clueless the day before the storm.
Last Sunday when I learned that Nagin was sending people into the heart of the city for shelter in the face of a cat 4/5 in a below sea level city surrounded by levees built for a 3 I was dumbstruck. I didn’t know he was a Democrat and I could have cared less. I thought *then* it was craziness. I’m angry that my own worst nightmare has come true. My comments about him and Blanco were based on that, as that is ‘failure’ I anticipated.
Do we need to improve FEMA, too? I’m sure we do. How?
And Gray, I’m sure you have all the facts, too.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:22 pm
Greg,
I wonder if you’d mind pointing me to the “lying” about New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin?
Point me to the specific lie you have seen here.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:26 pm
“Ok. Links you want, links you got:
Forecasters: Katrina to aim for Mississippi, Louisiana
Deadly hurricane could hit again Monday as a Category 4
Saturday, August 27, 2005 Posted: 0200 GMT (1000 HKT)”
OK? Everybody New that. Most of us knew it would cause serious flooding (except the federal government). What’s your point?
Now here’s your link:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article310195.ece
September 4th, 2005 at 6:31 pm
“Last Sunday when I learned that Nagin was sending people into the heart of the city for shelter in the face of a cat 4/5 in a below sea level city surrounded by levees built for a 3 I was dumbstruck.”
Becaused he assumed FEMA would be there immediately after the storm. Instead of being in the middle of an evacuation, when the storm hit. have them in a central hurricane-proof location for when FEMA and National Gaurd relief comes the NEXT DAY (with grownups in charge). I would have called it a good call, if we had competent and caring Feds.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:34 pm
I think it’s really hysterical that people are putting the majority of blame on the mayor. Like I said on another thread, Ray Nagin did not have the legal authority to order a mandatory evacuation until Sunday when the city’s lawyers were able to find him a loophole/precedent in the law that said he could. Can someone please tell me how, on Sunday with the hurricane less than 24 hours away, Ray Nagin was supposed to find bus drivers to get the buses and then organize pickups to get 100,000 people out of town? Did Jeb Bush have school buses mobilized last year in Florida? It is complete blind partisanship to say that the bulk of the blame lies with the mayor for the biggest national disaster in the history of this country. Ray Nagin could have done more, but he did what he could–he did what he was authorized to do. And Blanco declared a state of emergency last Saturday. The fact of the matter is, there’s not much more the governor or the mayor could have done within their job descriptions. FEMA, however, did NOTHING right. Did anyone catch Aaron Broussard (President of Jefferson Parish) on Meet the Press this morning? FEMA turned away fuel supplies from the Coast Guard. They turned away water from Wal-Mart. They cut off the local law enforcement’s communications systems. Not only does it seem that they’re inept but they’re actually making things worse. I don’t know about you blind partisans, but it doesn’t make me sleep any better at night knowing that the mayor might have gotten a few school buses on the street before the storm. What makes me scared is that FEMA, the agency that’s supposed to be the federal government’s primary responder in case of a national disaster, is completely and utterly inept.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:43 pm
Right Number One,
In this situation I am willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. He activated FEMA and gave it all the authority it needed to assume command and control in coordinating the disaster relief effort in Katrina’s wake. But at that point something went horribly wrong, and FEMA blew it.
Ray Nagin is answerable to the voters of New Orleans. Governor Blanco is answerable to the citizens of Louisiana. Those living outside these jurisdictions who would have these people summarily crucified should kindly disengage from the politics of personal destruction and allow local government to function as it should, and punish whom it ultimately finds at fault.
FEMA director Brown and DHS secretary Chertoff, however, answer to our President. And he answers to us — all of us. If Bush wants to retain any credibility whatsoever in the aftermath of this failure, he needs to show the American people that incompetence will not be tolerated when it comes to emergency management. Too much is at stake here.
It’s that simple.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:47 pm
I understand that, B.C.
If NO had taken the anticipated direct hit, would the dome have even made it? I don’t have information on that, but that also was part of my fear last Sunday.
And how fast is FEMA Ever able to ‘get there’ after a strong storm…part of the questions I raised above…due to the need to protect resources from the storm?
At the very least, shouldn’t there have been adequate food and water for the people being sheltered by the city for several days? Had there been, would we have experienced this degree of horror?
September 4th, 2005 at 6:49 pm
Catherine,
There is no need to wonder how Nagin was supposed to evacuate the city.
Here is the link to the Hurricane Disaster Plan for the city of New Orleans, where Nagin is given the power and the responsibility of evacuating the city:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
The failure lies with him; and with Kathleen Blanco, who refused to turn over evacuation efforts to the Federal Government when she realized Nagin wasn’t going to do his job.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:53 pm
Rightnumberone, most of my posts provide links to the facts. You’ll find a lot by searching buzzmachine. Sry that I couldn’t provide them every time when several people were bashing me at once.
I’m quite exhausted now, but what are you specifically interested in?
And, btw, I’m still waiting for YOU to apologize.
Hurricane warning for NO was friday, not thursday.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:54 pm
Some of you keep asking questions and making comments:
Questions such as: How was Nagin supposed to evacuate the city?
Or, making comments such as:
Nagin didn’t have the authority to evacuate the city.
But some of you are not linking to actual documents which back up your assertions.
If you just have an opinion, that’s fine. But when you make statements such as “the mayor did not have the authority to evacuate the city,” then you should really provide a link to an authoritative source that documents your claim.
I’m trying as best I can to point to authoritative sources of information that I am basing my opinions on. I’m trying not to base my opinion on just, you know, gut feelings, or how I wish things were.
You may think Nagin is blameless. That is one opinion. And you’re free to have it.
The facts, the easily documentable facts, are leading me to conclude otherwise.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:56 pm
Larry Johnson puts to bed any discussion of when the Feds should have acted:
http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/09/criminal_neglig.html
Bush can’t shift the blame for this off onto the state and local folks. He is at the eye of this scandalous (some say criminal) hurricane.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:58 pm
Eileen,
FEMA didn’t have to fly anywhere after Katrina — they were already in place at least 48 hours before the storm hit!
—
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana
Office of the Press Secretary
August 27, 2005
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
The President’s action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.
Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: FEMA (202) 646-4600.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:00 pm
So you are claiming that they sat there and did nothing??
September 4th, 2005 at 7:03 pm
Nonsense, rightnumberone. YOU did post information here that turned out to be false. It’s ok to make a mistake in the heat of the arguement, but you didn’t apaologize and still you now want to give us lectures on accountability.
That’s bald-faced.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:04 pm
Gray,
I see 19 posts and 1 link.
Most of your posts do not, therefore, have links in them. In fact, only one of them does.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:07 pm
You can’t argue with these conservatives. They would forgive Bush even if he was a pedophile — by blaming the child.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:10 pm
Thank you, Eileen. I’m sure we both agree and disagree on many things, and I appreciate your acknowledgement.
From page 43 of the National Response Plan, signed by the President December 2004:
â– Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude.
(So much for “Blanco sent the form to the wrong office”)
â– Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
(Didn’t happen)
â– Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
(THE COORDINATION PROCESS MUST NOT DELAY OR IMPEDE THE RAPID DEPLOYMENT AND USE OF CRITICAL RESOURCES. Yes, I’m shouting.)
But as you probably know, FEMA in fact discouraged, failed to accept, or prohibited direct and timely aid for not only New Orleans, but Jefferson Parish. Refusing to allow the Red Cross in with food and water because it would “encourage people to stay” is appalling. If I wanted to be a rabble rouser I’d phrase it as “the FEMA policy on the ground was to starve people out”. Expect to see that, eventually, but not from me. Brown and Chertoff are directly responsible there, but I would much rather believe they’re truly incompetent at their jobs rather than malevolent.
As for what to do about FEMA? It’s a damned good question, but we can’t deal with it in isolation. A budgeting system that allocates $200+ million to a truly non-essential bridge in Alaska but can’t find $40 million for levee repairs is broken. That’s not partisan - the budgeting (and hence prioritizing system) is broken. While FEMA may need direct attention first, the whole system needs reform, badly.
When the time comes for that, I hope people of good will on ALL sides of the political spectrum will be able to come together and decide on a change. It’ll be messy, but it needs doing. I would like to see you involved in that, Eileen. I hope your sister and her family are doing ok, and that you’re holding up.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:12 pm
I’m dumfounded by your critiquing abilities Steve.
You display typical leftist thinking. When you can’t win an argument on facts, start calling people child molesters.
You can crawl back under your rock now, Steve.
I figure in under 30 more posts, I’ll be called a Nazi, and we can officially close this thread.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:13 pm
‘So you are claiming that they sat there and did nothing??’
Yes.
Here’s one eyewitness accout of fed agents poking in their nose and preventing the rescue mission of Lavayete volunteers:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/371
Even worse, FEMA interdicted the transport of supplies for the hurricane victims:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/387
September 4th, 2005 at 7:17 pm
Greg,
Excellent posting. I think everyone would agree that FEMA could have acted more quickly once New Orleans flooded. (How FEMA was supposed to get relief to people submerged in 12 feet of water is a mystery I haven’t quite figured out yet.)
Nevertheless, the city had the authority and obligation to evacuate infirm residents before the storm. A plan was made prior to the storm to accomplish this feat.
Yet, the plan was not carried out.
Although there were elements of the plan that dealt with people who could not afford to leave, or were too infirm to leave New Orleans, the city did not execute that part of the plan.
The city told anyone who couldn’t get out to go to the Superdome, where the city knew there would be no water, electricity, food, adequate safety or a way out.
It’s criminal negligence on the part of the Mayor, who holds these responsibilities.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:19 pm
(How FEMA was supposed to get relief to people submerged in 12 feet of water is a mystery I haven’t quite figured out yet.)
I guess you would call the necessary
September 4th, 2005 at 7:19 pm
????
I guess you would call the necessary device a BOAT, rightnumberone.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:23 pm
Greg,
I’m curious if you have an idea many boats it would take to ship in enough supplies to feed and water 150,000 stranded people for 6 days?
Not to mention the additional 500,000 people who are affected by this storm in 3 other states who currently have no food, water or electricity?
September 4th, 2005 at 7:23 pm
I’m not clear on why anyone bothers responding to RightNumberOne. He doesn’t play by the rules, doesn’t acknowledge when he’s wrong, doesn’t engage with anyone’s points, except the ones that he wants to engage with. If I were the moderator on this board, I would shut down this thread immediately, as there’s just too much intellectual dishonesty here.
It’s very much why most of the the right of center blogs stopped linking to Brendan Loy. Once he got around to attacking FEMA, Brown, and Chertoff for their incompetance, in addition to Nagin for his incompetance, it wasn’t any fun for them anymore.
You can’t fool everyone all the time, though. The disatisfaction is growing, and Rasmussen has it right here:
http://rasmussenreports.com/2005/Katrina.htm
September 4th, 2005 at 7:24 pm
Pardon me Greg,
My last post was directed at Harbor Master Gray.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:26 pm
Vince,
If you don’t agree with someone … the left’s answer is to cut off debate. Hell, just censor that guy RightNumberOne.
Moderator - close this thread!!!!
That’s why we aren’t letting people like you run the country.
You’re DANGEROUS.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:28 pm
Sorry to double post, but RNO finally showed a bit of humilty while I was typing my last comment.
RNO, the issue is not how many boats would have been necessary. What’s at issue is that the number necessary would be more than effectively 0, which is what FEMA provided. Nagin was bad–FEMA was worse, because relief is their job–it’s their speciality.
I know you guys all get your talking points from a central location, but be careful: it’s apparent to everyone what’s going on here and how you’re trying to deflect the blame from “Horse-Boy” Brown. People are smarter than you give them credit for being.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:31 pm
VinceGlorthau, you’re right, I’ve been too polite. He won’t even admit lazy mistakes, yet wants me to do the work and show all my links now. Heck, he doesn’t even say which information he doubts. Now he states that there were 150000 people trapped, a number that’s nowhere to be seen in the news. Of course, he’s not providing a link, thus violating his own ‘ethics code’.
What a troll.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:32 pm
Ah, lag is fun, isn’t it?
RNO, take a chill pill. Nobody’s trying to silence you. It’s just that this blog seems to be for real discussion. You’ll always have Free Republic.
If you can’t acknowledge that FEMA, Brown, et al were incompetant, in the same way that Nagin was incompetant, then you’re fundamentally intellectually dishonest. That seems to be what you’re doing, and you’re doing it for entirely partisan reasons. That’s really sad.
If you’re out for getting to the truth, then great. But it’s apparent to all concerned that that’s not at all what you’re doing here–you’re out to defect blame from the feds.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:33 pm
Reightnumberone, provide links to the numbers of 150000 and 500000 first. I suspect that they are your own guesstimate.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:33 pm
According to Rasmussen:
53% of Americans feel that the Federal government’s response to the disaster has been Excellent, Good or Fair.
http://rasmussenreports.com/2005/Katrina.htm
Only 45% think its been poor.
Thanks for helping me make my point Vince.
Even with the entire MSM attempting to make this whole flood George W. Bush’s fault, the American public isn’t falling for it.
That’s inline with the ABCNews Poll which shows similar results This poll showed that 75% of people questioned believe that the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans were not prepared for this storm.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1
Also shows just 44% blaming Bush (which is inline with the 44% of Americans who blame Bush for anything.)
September 4th, 2005 at 7:35 pm
With respect to boats, they could have just used the three that the NOFD had.
I’m still waiting for a cogent discussion as to why the Mayor didn’t do his job. I asume the citizens of LA pay him to do something.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:37 pm
“I think everyone would agree that FEMA could have acted more quickly once New Orleans flooded. ”
They should have moved their apparatus in place on Saturday and Sunday. I knew it would be catistrophic. I’m a little guy with a computer Why didn’t FEMA move then.
“(How FEMA was supposed to get relief to people submerged in 12 feet of water is a mystery I haven’t quite figured out yet.)”
This is the most twisted assenine thing I’ve heard so far! The people who needed relief were high and as dry as could be expected, and ALIVE at the dome and convention centers. Any one under 12 feet of water was dead. You just proved you are unencumbered by the thought process!
“Yet, the plan was not carried out.”
Why don’t you post that plan yet one more time? You know, the one that says nothing about what to do for flooding?
“The city told anyone who couldn’t get out to go to the Superdome, where the city knew there would be no water, electricity, food, adequate safety or a way out.”
Unless the President, on his vacation, had gotten his ass back to DC and mobilized FEMA on Sunday. He could have called Brown Saturday night to save all the Arabian Horses in NO. Nagin would have made a good call, had grownups been in charge of FEMA. I guess that would be to much for him to expect.
“It’s criminal negligence on the part of the Mayor, who holds these responsibilities.”
Criminal negligence is bying $3000 shoes, playing guitar, hiding in Wyoming, eating birthday cake, playing golf and speaking to an audience of hand picked syncophants about something the rest of the country doesn’t want while babies and elderly dehydrate at your feet. When are you going to stop bashing Nagin and answer to the real issues?
September 4th, 2005 at 7:37 pm
The volunteers of Lafayette came with a lot of boats. FEMA turned them away:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/371
And where’s the evidence that Nagin didn’t do his job?
September 4th, 2005 at 7:40 pm
Gray,
According to CNN, the estimate of people trapped in the Superdome was 30,000.
They evacuated 1,000 from a single hospital in New Orleans.
I am looking for better estimates.
Meantime, how many boats do you think it would take to haul in enough supplies to feed, water, clothe, provide medicine or otherwise take care of 30,000 people for 6 days?
Your original point was that FEMA should have just went in there with some boats. Right?
September 4th, 2005 at 7:42 pm
‘Unless the President, on his vacation, had gotten his ass back to DC and mobilized FEMA on Sunday.’
90% ack to you, BC, but Bush DID order FEMA to start preps on SATURDAY!
‘President Bush has issued a pre-storm emergency declaration that puts federal agencies on alert to provide aid, Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Saturday night, adding that FEMA representatives told her such a move is highly unusual.’
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050828/NEWS01/508280312/1002/NEWS
Brown badly s***ed up. Of course, he was appointed by Bush, even though he has no real qualification on the job:
http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857
September 4th, 2005 at 7:42 pm
All right–for those keeping track at home, this is what we call intellectual dishonesty.
1) Rasmussen follows conven